Contest Stats and Discussion - Part 1375 - Thank you, Allen!

I have way more fun memories of multiplayer Brawl and SSE. I remember laying 4 a bit and it feeling super half baked

its all personal anecdotes but if I had to rank the smashes I would easily put 4 at the bottom, especially now that Ultimate invalidated it

I only played the 3DS version of Smash 4 and I didn't dig it

Oh yeah that version wasn't as universally liked.

But basically everyone had 4 Wii U > Brawl the four years between 4 and Ultimate.

ctesjbuvf posted...

But basically everyone had 4 Wii U > Brawl the four years between 4 and Ultimate.

Sort of. Sure, a big chunk of the Smash fanbase goes with whatever is newest. In terms of contest strength, however, Smash 4 underperformed compared to Brawl's heights. 55% on Mass Effect just isn't that great.

You can also see this phenomenon in the 'Favorite Smash Game' polls that have been held.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/6235-which-is-best-all-time-super-smash-bros-game

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/9438-what-is-the-best-all-time-super-smash-bros-game

During 4's heydey, it didn't come close to outpacing Melee, while Smash Ultimate did. it also retained less of a dedicated fanbase than Brawl. I think that's because even when 4 was the hot new thing with the largest roster...people didn't actually like it that much. As Zen said, it lacked identity and was on a failing console. People have zero nostalgia for it as well.

tl;dr - Smash 4 could easily rSFF Brawl if they went head to head, but I would take Brawl to be stronger in a neutral contest setting.

"How strong is SSBB today?" is an interesting question. At its peak, it looked better than SSB4 and SSBU. But, both SSB4 and SSBU got better receptions than SSBB. It's hard to say if SSBB's reputation has gone down since many of its issues were already known when it was strong. I guess it also depends how much people's memories lean into SSE cutscenes over memories of tripping. SSE style cutscenes never really came back so one of the talking points over the years highlights one of the genuinely positive parts of SSBB.

imo SSBU has completely erased SSB4 from existence and has sapped away its power

not sure if everyone else sees it but there are valid reasons to revisit Brawl but no reason to dig out the Wii U to play 4 when Ultimate exists

I'd even argue the awful 3DS one is better than 4 for Wii U because it has Smash Run and at least that's something unique over Ultimate

Yeah, Brawl at least has Subspace as a reason I would bother playing it again, even in spite of tripping.

4 has no reason to have me bothering to go back to the f***ing Wii U ever.

Brawl had hype. It was an event. Smash 4's fancy CG trailers have got absolutely nothing on the Dojo. That matters for a lot. People vote with their emotions, not objective analysis. Part of why Ultimate performed way better than 4 was because it managed to make Smash an event again.

Yeah, I think I'd take Brawl over Smash 4 both directly and indirectly. Like others have said, Smash 4 is the only one that feels obsolete.

I'd take 64 over Smash 4

My first instinct is hesitation on a Brawl > 4 Wii U match. But then I realize, just being on the Wii vs. the Wii U is such an advantage that the obsolete game on the Wii has to wreck the obsolete game on the Wii U. Bonus points go to Brawl for not having to have the Wii U in its title.

'Super Smash Bros. for Wii U' is such a debuff of a name. 'Smash 4' would legit perform better (and still lose to Brawl).

It's such a terrible name

I mean I agree with all of that!

My point that the four years between the release of Smash 4 for Wii U and Ultimate basically everyone had Wii U > Brawl still stands though.

At no point did I or will I claim it reached the highs of Brawl or would be looked back upon as nicely post Ultimate.

It being really bad was the hot take. It being made the most obsolete or having the lowest heights is not at all.

ctesjbuvf posted...

My point that the four years between the release of Smash 4 for Wii U and Ultimate basically everyone had Wii U > Brawl still stands though.

This is true, but Brawl was popular enough to beat Melee at one point and it'd probably get beat handily now. Things change when you're not the freshest face anymore! I'd expect Smash 4 to have fallen off the hardest because Ultimate is just Smash 4 but better in every way.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1651-division-16-semifinals-chrono-trigger-vs-super-mario-world

I wonder what the percentages look like in this one now. CT would still win if it's near 2015 levels, but World is definitely stronger now than it was here.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3493-division-8-round-2-mgs4-portal-fallout-3-halo-3

How does this one go now? I guess Fallout 3 wins, but what finishes 2nd? Portal and MGS4 both looked pretty mediocre in 2015. I don't see Halo 3 sneaking through here though, but maybe I'm wrong.

It has without a doubt fallen off the hardest, yeah. That doesn't mean it was ever bad though!

At the time of the 2015 contest we speculated more about it not being as strong as Brawl was because it was on Wii U mostly not because it wasn't good or anything.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1652-division-16-semifinals-the-legend-of-zelda-a-link-to-the

Fun fact: This match pic was the impetus for CJayC allowing users to make match pics for the last few rounds of this contest because it got so many complaints. The games have ugly official art! It couldn't be helped! I don't know why this was the final straw on match pic complaints, but it worked out for the best in the end with user match pics.



https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3494-division-1-final-tetris-mega-man-2-smb-1-zelda-i

Mario 1 had a decisive victory over Zelda 1 in the previous round, but this time, it was a lot closer. Not sure if Mario 1 just had more overlap with Mega Man and Tetris than Zelda did or what, but the gap did close quite a bit regardless.

I actually didn't know that.

I like that match pic. Classic art is nice.

KP you gave me more grief than almost everyone else over liking the sprite round >_>

Not all sprites are created equal.

Ganon's Zelda 1 sprite is godlike and I will never be convinced otherwise.

Bacondorf is ugly and it negatively impacts his performance every time it's used

the sprite round should have stopped after Snake/Frog

The sprite round is tradition !!

Plus I'm old. Those are the models I grew up on and I love them.

Not all traditions are good

I don't know why we can't just get Ganondorf represented by a blocky 3D mobel from OoT in "sprite rounds." Sames goes for a MGS1 model for Snake instead of looking like a dog turd from Metal Gear 2.

I enjoy the sprite round but it definitely works way better for some than others.

when we eventually got to an era where newer characters w/o sprites were making it to the sprite round, i knew it wouldn't last much longer

i remember trying to make a sprite pic of altair and it came out looking like s***

_SecretSquirrel posted...

I don't know why we can't just get Ganondorf represented by a blocky 3D mobel from OoT in "sprite rounds." Sames goes for a MGS1 model for Snake instead of looking like a dog turd from Metal Gear 2.

Those are polygons. Not sprites.

Not to be pedantic, but in '03 and '07 the theme was first in-game appearance, not sprites.* Is that better or worse?

*Except for Mario in '03 of course. More cheating!

UltimaterializerX posted...

Those are polygons. Not sprites.

Which is the problem. We're forcing Snake to have a garbage pic because "WE GOTTA HAVE SPRITES"

Leonhart4 posted...

Which is the problem. We're forcing Snake to have a garbage pic because "WE GOTTA HAVE SPRITES"

It's not like it's completely without precedent. We have had characters who simply don't have sprites at all make the "sprite round" and the common sense thing happens there. It could be extended to characters who are wholly unrecognizable or look like dog turds with the sprites they have.

I think we begged for MGS1 Snake for years and never got him because IT’S NOT A SPRITE

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1653-division-32-semifinals-final-fantasy-vii-vs-metal-gear-solid

This result was attributed to PS1 SFF by many. MGS often didn't fare well against FFVII until Snake boosted after Brawl/MGS4 hype.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3495-division-2-final-smb-3-sonic-1-smw-ff2

Pour one out for Mario 3, because this was the last time it would ever finish ahead of Mario World in any poll they shared together.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1654-division-32-semifinals-goldeneye-vs-the-legend-of-zelda

If there was one thing I could change about this bracket, I'd switch it around to have Mario 64 and GoldenEye face FFVII and have MGS1 face OoT. Actually, I'd settle for MGS1 vs. GoldenEye.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3496-division-3-final-zelda-lttp-s-metroid-ff3-zelda-la

What an embarrassing performance by FFVI here. Two other Nintendo games, including another Zelda game, and it still can't get close to LttP. I know the Nintendo hierarchy knows how to fall in line when the time calls for it, but come on, MGS1 got the job done against R/B/Y in the previous round.

I think the reality is that the SNES Final Fantasies also overlapped pretty well with Nintendo's SNES offerings, so they didn't have as much standout factor as you would think, especially compared to the Playstation offerings.

oh I just realized the 2004 contest skipped another day at some point so I'm a day ahead there, whoops

LeonhartFour posted...

oh I just realized the 2004 contest skipped another day at some point so I'm a day ahead there, whoops

I mean, next match might actually be worth 48 hours of discussion.

The DOOM vs FF6 match was 2 days

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1655-division-32-semifinals-starcraft-vs-the-legend-of-zelda-the

Carriers have arrived. What now, Link?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3497-division-4-final-ff7-goldeneye-s-mario-64-c-trigger

It's kind of incredible that FFVII put up over 40% in this match.

Oh man, Chrono Trigger got wrecked here. One can blame Square SFF, and that's probably true here to some extent, but Goldeneye should have hurt Mario 64 much worse, and it just didn't. Especially since CT was the sole SNES game and should have leveraged some sort of standout factor with that.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3498-division-5-final-mgs-pokemon-zelda-oot-ff8

Terrible result all around, but at least FFVIII managed to hold its own.

Impressive performance by RBY.

I’m surprised Leon you don’t like Pokemon much given your JRPG love. Does the catching stuff part not appeal to you?

I generally do not enjoy games where collect-a-thon is one of the main draws. It's why I bailed on Rare games after Donkey Kong 64. They just got outta hand.

I beat Blue back in the day, and it was fine. I was also at the age when Pokemon was lame and for kids (when you're 12, you don't want to be seen as kiddy). As such, I never really got into the series beyond that. I played Pokemon Snap randomly and also Pokemon Stadium, but that was about it.

I think Stadium also helped me realize I don't really enjoy the Pokemon battle system either.

Man…I was like 14 or 15 when Pokémon came out… Twelve year olds being all “baby game” is some crazy s***.

It's the age where the cool thing is to play M-rated games

E for Everyone? Get outta here

(Pokemon is still for babies imhotbqh)

Basically, tweens are the f***ing worst.

Also I haven’t played a mainline Pokémon since Silver/Gold.