GameFAQs Contests
Contest Stats and Discussion - Part 1017
Zero
is part of it. BB was just as guilty, probably more, since he knew The
Boss better. Not sure where you get that notion from as BB basically
admits in the MGS4 ending that everything is his and Zero's fault. And that's f***ing amazing In-universe, yeah, but people playing the game should know better than to treat him like a hero. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
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I see KP is being wrong about Big Boss again --- peace comes from within |
Nothing
I've said in this topic about BB is wrong. 'He sucks' is a subjective
opinion - everything else is directly supported by the series itself. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
that sounds pretty wrong to me --- http://i.imgur.com/Z2q8O.jpg http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png |
Hey guys you know who's better than all these lame Metal Gear characters? Sephiroth. --- http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/984/rvpi.jpg "I was wrong" - SmartMuffin |
Well saving the world from nuclear holocaust three times with crippling moral dilemmas gripping at you is kind of heroic. MGS1 Snake is... uh... good in the Otacon ending, I guess? I mean, yes, he does make a 180 insofar as characterization goes through the entire game and, yes, he does have a good moment where he freaks the Hell out when Meryl gets shot, but it's done pretty ham-handedly and done after the Psycho Mantis scene where he's all "yeah well get off my case woman". I understand you could see that as him wanting to be detatched more from humanity so he doesn't HAVE to care, but he follows a pretty standard path to becoming a fleshed-out human being without a lot of the development necessary, mostly just parroting things people say and spitting out one-liners and being all grizzled and aloof. He's interesting, he's just boring in how he gets from Point A to Point B. |
KP
isn't technically *wrong* about Big Boss - the character can do a lot
of good things and be very compelling while at the same time making very
awful mistakes that his son has to fix, all out of bitterness and hurt.
Peace Walker establishes this pretty clearly: *PEACE WALKER SPOILERS* Snake: "...She betrayed me, Kaz.... In the end, she put down her gun. And when she did... she rejected her entire life up to that point... including me. In giving up her life, she abandoned everything she was as a soldier... I won't make the same choice as her. My future's going to be different." *END SPOILERS* On a more germane note, Frog/Magus are in a lot of trouble. Raiden/Vamp should not be particularly strong, and the rivalry connection is comparatively weak. --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
No,
not just in-universe. A cult of personality like that makes for an
interesting character. What makes him so good imo isn't some basic
heroism, it's that he was a good guy corrupted by...war and stuff. |
You're
wrong in a number of ways, including that he was a 'monster,' because
he absolutely wasn't. There was a reason for most of the things he did,
even if they were flawed, and his personal beliefs and character don't
line up with your assessment either. That he eventually threatened the
world was a result of a clash with a far more evil and powerful
organization. Big Boss is a character of perspective more than any other
in the series. --- peace comes from within |
I don't dislike BB's characterization. I just hate his fanbase. Biggest case of missing the point I've EVER seen. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
From: KamikazePotato | #410 Huh? --- http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/984/rvpi.jpg "I was wrong" - SmartMuffin |
Just
because BB has a dark tortured soul or whatever doesn't make him not a
monster. His actions later in the series are all unforgiveable. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
Kamekguy posted... Well saving the world from nuclear holocaust three times with crippling moral dilemmas gripping at you is kind of heroic. MGS1 Snake is... uh... good in the Otacon ending, I guess? I mean, yes, he does make a 180 insofar as characterization goes through the entire game and, yes, he does have a good moment where he freaks the Hell out when Meryl gets shot, but it's done pretty ham-handedly and done after the Psycho Mantis scene where he's all "yeah well get off my case woman". I understand you could see that as him wanting to be detatched more from humanity so he doesn't HAVE to care, but he follows a pretty standard path to becoming a fleshed-out human being without a lot of the development necessary, mostly just parroting things people say and spitting out one-liners and being all grizzled and aloof. He's interesting, he's just boring in how he gets from Point A to Point B. It's not so abrupt as that, even if you don't take his Codec characterization - which is both substantial and significant. Snake know that he loves killing and he knows that is wrong, and the Colonel plays off of this desire of his from the game's onset. Having his past thrown back in his face via Grey Fox, saving Meryl when he didn't need to (and his reaction when he gets called out on it), and ultimately having to grow and contrast himself from Liquid are done with discernable reason and believability. The Psycho Mantis scene should be recognized what it is - Snake retreating into his hardened shell of a killer's persona, and unwilling to open up to Meryl especially since he both tipped his hand in saving her and because he was already mentally exposed by Psycho Mantis for his purported crime of patricide. --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
From: Karma Hunter | #400 99% of his character in MGS1 is repeating the last sentence back as a question. --- "Ulti started talking about tough love and the rest of the board just opened up its collective legs." -Digi |
From: KamikazePotato | #410 Even if he is a "monster" or whatever, I can't like him? You're aware Kratos, Beatrice, Furudo Erika, GLaDOS, Renegade FemShep and Laharl are among my favorite characters, right? --- "Sig rotating is far too time consuming, unless of course you are Ulti and control time." -RPGLord95 |
KamikazePotato posted... I don't dislike BB's characterization. I just hate his fanbase. Biggest case of missing the point I've EVER seen. What the hell. |
Snake is a parrot in MGS1. He was ALMOST a parrot in MGS4 except he had no one to talk to. --- caps |
That's
fine with me, but don't make him something he's not. Big Boss is not a
hero, he didn't 'take matter into his own hands', and extolling his
virtues while minimizing Snake's goes against every single message in
the entire series. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
What
was unforgivable, after knowing why it was he did them? After knowing
who it was he was fighting against? If you take the early MG games as
they were, without having the perspective the newer games were meant to
give, that might be one way to look at it. That's certainly not my take
on him or the events that happened. Big Boss isn't perfect, but he also
isn't meant to be. He's not the good guy who swoops in and always
manages to fall on the 'right' side of things, but that's fine. --- peace comes from within |
Aside
from all of Outer Heaven itself, BB sends his (clone) son to die to
further his own plans. When he unexpectedly survives, he tries to kill
him himself. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
Yeah I don't get how Big Boss can be construed as a monster after you play MGS3. --- http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/984/rvpi.jpg "I was wrong" - SmartMuffin |
That's
all well and good, but it kind of falls flat on its face when Snake
goes "That takes care of the cremation" when Liquid's Hind-D goes down.
It's a hilarious line, no doubt, but it goes against his trying to defy
fate and not be the killer that his brother and father have influenced
him to be. It kind of makes him more of an ass than Liquid, and going
from that to Sniper Wolf's death is kind of a jarring transition. For
me, Snake's character is ruined by pacing, and the codec makes
conversations drag on for quite a long while to the point of becoming
not engaging. His reaction to Meryl getting shot and his conversation
with Naomi on the cargo elevator are probably the highlights of his
character for me, but that's sandwiched between him being a parrot and
going 'nukes are bad', and that really just shoots him in the foot.
There's a lot of raw potential there undermined by technical limitations
and bad decisions on how to advance the story. Though I will thank you for the enlightenment on the Mantis scene; I couldn't get past the fact that it was a redemption for the sociopathic Psycho Mantis in death, so the scene with Snake and Meryl always felt tacked on. That helps ease the transition from scene to scene better. Also feeling happy about Chell/GLaDOS next round and how I'm not COMPLETELY screwed. |
You
can absolutely like Big Boss, sympathize with his cause and his
character, and still not minimize Snake. As a character, Big Boss is far
more interesting, and his interactions with people far more personable,
which makes for more entertaining conversations, but yeah. There's
nothing wrong with Snake. --- peace comes from within |
ExThaNemesis posted... Yeah I don't get how Big Boss can be construed as a monster after you play MGS3. Because just because the MGS3 ending was really sad doesn't absolve BB of everything he does later on. Snake was crapped on all his life. He didn't turn into a villain. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
"I never really thought of you as a son" - Big Boss Snake was not a son figure for Big Boss so overexaggerating "omg he tried to kill his own son" does nothing really. --- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/59xiiipngpy.png |
PartOfYourWorld posted... Big Boss is the best. I've actually had a girl ask me if she could pretend I was Big Boss during lovemaking. I told her "fine, but only if I can pretend YOU are Big Boss." I can't remind you guys enough of this: http://img.imgcake.com/Cerryl/big_snakex1.jpg --- From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch |
Then
he still sent someone on his own command, who trusted him. So basically
he tries to do to Snake what the government does to The Boss and
himself in MGS3. So he's become what he hates. It's good
characterization, but it doesn't make him a good guy. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
UltimaterializerX posted... From: Karma Hunter | #400 Big Boss isn't a *total* monster, but PW definitely establishes that he's a bitter and flawed individual. That's not a bad thing as far as characterization goes, of course. Snake in MGS1 gets a worse rap though, and it's undeserved. That's actually the game where he gets his MOST characterization. He just happens to be an unrepentant sociopath at the beginning of it! 99% of his character in MGS1 is repeating the last sentence back as a question. Aside from the fact that this is a *tad* unfair considering that Raiden does the same thing in MGS2 to an even GREATER extent.. it's not true. Virtually every scene in MGS's first arc has Snake exemplifying a gradual change in his personality, starting from the Briefing (totally cold, arrogant, defensive and bloodthirsty) to the first Codec conversation with Meryl (more acknowledging of his nature, chiding, patronizing, with a touch of shame) to his encountering Grey Fox (trauma and regret), to Psycho Mantis (a compounding of trauma and regret, leading to his uncharacteristic intervention in saving Meryl), to Meryl getting shot (a culmination of those previous events, leading him to declare that he would save Meryl for his own reasons). This is in *addition* to Snake's other personality aspects - cool under pressure, intimidating, a bit of a chauvinist, a bit more of a flirt, and of course his proclivity to have a badass one-liner or retort ready on cue. Big Boss is good, too, but compare him in the first arc of MGS3. His interests are pretty much singularly limited to THEBOSSTHEBOSSTHEBOSS and him coming close to creaming his pants when EVA gives him a gun (notably *not* EVA herself...). --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
From: KamikazePotato | #427 But it's made entirely understandable by the presence of MGS3/PO/PW. They completely change the character from what he is in MG1/2 - he goes from being the Big Bad to a tragic villain. --- "With Harry, it's cool. We don't speak a lot and he doesn't care if I smile or if I know who the next team we play is." - Benoit Assou-Ekotto |
KamikazePotato posted... Aside from all of Outer Heaven itself, BB sends his (clone) son to die to further his own plans. When he unexpectedly survives, he tries to kill him himself. That's precisely because he was a product of the Patriots. At that point in time, during MG1, Big Boss was devoting all his resources to fighting a war against them. The whole LET project was one of the big reasons why Big Boss and Zero had a falling out. He never considered him his son either. --- peace comes from within |
Yeah
I don't really care what BB's justifications were. Everyone has
justifications. Liquid, Solidus, Vamp, probably even Volgin. Why should I
give BB special treatment? Because he's the main character? "Some bad things happened to him, which made him bitter. Later, he sends someone under his own command to their death to serve his own purposes. After it fails, he tries to kill that person himself." Would you consider this faceless character worth fighting for? --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
hey KH finish the list here's some spin - Raiden doing well on a known opponent implies strength. Yuna did pretty well on Raiden. Tidus/Jecht are stronger than Yuna/Seymour. Big Boss rocked Tidus. Samus is so screwed --- add the c and back away iphonesience |
Wait wait wait... ... Solidus isn't a good guy? |
That's it, no more last minute changing my oracle anymore. I had Alucard and this match ON THE MONEY until I decided to raise it because other people scared me. At least I'm getting this division perfectly. |
Kamekguy posted... That's all well and good, but it kind of falls flat on its face when Snake goes "That takes care of the cremation" when Liquid's Hind-D goes down. It's a hilarious line, no doubt, but it goes against his trying to defy fate and not be the killer that his brother and father have influenced him to be. It kind of makes him more of an ass than Liquid, and going from that to Sniper Wolf's death is kind of a jarring transition. For me, Snake's character is ruined by pacing, and the codec makes conversations drag on for quite a long while to the point of becoming not engaging. At the point the Hind-D goes down, though, Snake has yet to actually and fully defy his fate in the sense of being a born killer, which is why it is able to bite him that much more when Liquid calls him out on it. He empathizes with pretty much all of FOX-HOUND outside of him and Ocelot (for obvious reasons) on some level or another, and it's easier to understand the transition to Wolf if you take Mantis as the last point, not Liquid. Liquid is a very sore point for Snake, and vice-versa - it takes the span of the game for Snake to come to terms with that. And if we're going to fault Codec pacing, it's hard to not fault... every game before MGS4? Even MGS3, which eased up on it a bit, has like a half hour conversation where Big Boss and The Boss establish their entire previous relationship over the radio. That's excessive even by MGS standards. I'm not going to sit here and say there aren't problems with MGS and its pacing, but Snake's characterization is still *there*, obscured or not. --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
Because
his actions were understandable, and justifiable to the extent of what
he was up against and what he had known. Were they always 100% right?
Maybe not -- he went to an extreme -- but what he was fighting against
required extremities. Snake, even, had to go to the extremes when
fighting the Patriots, though in his own unique, and more acceptable,
way. Big Boss eventually becomes so absorbed in this fight that he loses
sight of what he was doing, but it doesn't make him a bad, monstrous
character. --- peace comes from within |
I'd
just like to say that the Che Guevara comparison is hilarious due to PW
but I won't go into detail due to spoilers.(Minor ones, but I know
people want to avoid spoilers anyway). --- Khali Speak: http://www.rot13.com/ |
You're
making excuses for him. His actions get worse and worse until they
resemble a supervillain - "Was he always right? Maybe not, but what he
fought required extremes". The only difference between BB and other MGS
villains (and yes, he is a villain) is that you play as him before he
becomes one. If Liquid Snake had had his own game before MGS1, everyone
would be in his cult of personality, too. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
The
issue is that all of the points that would make Liquid so easy to
loathe by Snake come at the end. Before this, Snake shares one scene
with Liquid, and Liquid spends half of it talking about how America is
stupid and why won't they listen to him and half of it chewing Snake's
ear off with Snake's response basically being "... what are you talking
about?" Still, this whole conversation has been pretty enlightening and I thank you for it. |
I'm in Liquid's cult of personality ANYWAY Too bad we didn't get Snake/Big Boss for the rivalry in this contest. I feel like they'd have a nonzero shot at Cloud/Seph, while Liquid is kind of like an erratic anchor that makes me worry even about Crono/Lavos. Okay, much much much less based on this match. But you get the idea. --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
I have more sympathy for Solidus than BB! --- Praise the Black Turtle, Game of the Decade Guru Champ. (Well, I never promised creativity, did I?!) |
If
Liquid shared Big Boss's compassion, personality, and understanding,
then yes, he might have his own large fanbase, too. Liquid is nothing
like Big Boss, though, so making him playable wouldn't do anything for
me. --- peace comes from within |
Solidus was the most sympathetic villain in the series imhhho Wait. Why on earth is this Raiden/Vamp instead of Raiden/Solidus? I don't even know I'm outta here --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
His compassion, personality, and understanding that all go out the door once life starts getting hard. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
True that. Raiden/Solidus might have gotten my vote today! --- peace comes from within |
From: Karma Hunter | #440 Yeah. Snake/Big Boss would be just too much badass power IMO --- http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/984/rvpi.jpg "I was wrong" - SmartMuffin |
MGS
people need to read some actual literature if they want good
characters. The number of bad theses I've seen for that series is
astounding. --- You have her sympathy. You have her tears. She only tries to take all your fears. |
All this MGS talk is making me really wanna play through MGS HDS collection --- Game of the Decade? More like Guru of the Decade mirite? |
I
don't think someone who lists Kratos as a favorite character can
realistically talk down to people about good character quality. --- Black Turtle did a pretty good job. |
UltimaterializerX posted... MGS people need to read some actual literature if they want good characters. The number of bad theses I've seen for that series is astounding. Snake wouldn't be in my top 100 as far as developed literary characters, and that's accounting for a MASSIVE bias on my part when it comes to Snake. That doesn't mean Snake lacks development - especially if you compare him to other video game characters, who most make Snake/Big Boss look more or less like Citizen Kane. --- http://i48.tinypic.com/1ryijd.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/020/b/f/Ariel_by_lolita_art.jpg |
