GameFAQs Contests

Augh I just switched to Neku for no real reason, just wanted another potential upset. Cookie cutters never win!
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Well, she did slightly worse against Dante in 2007 than she did against Crono in 2008, but that could probably be explained by the Wii version of her game coming out between those contests.
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

Why do we believe in Nintendo/Sonic LFF again?

I want hard proof, not theories.
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"But you have been given freedom. Freedom to be...outside."
"I am lightning...the rain transformed."

From: MarioSuperstar | #148
Yeah that performance is quite strange considering the year before she was pretty much fodder or was it a similar performance?

No, she was pretty bad the year before. Barely got past a SFFed Little Mac, barely got past Ada and Balthier in a match where both (especially Ada) had more reason to be LFFed, and lost miserably in a match where Dante and Leon were probably LFFing eachother. Of course the Wii re-release may have done something for her... maybe.
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift

Ammy didn't come anywhere close to losing to Little Mac. And if Ada was LFF'd, then why did she do exactly the same on Balthier?

And if you ask me to pick between Shadow and Balthier, I'll probably take Balthier.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

Well, it isn't conclusively proven, but I don't know how you go from doing good on Auron to crapping to Zidane. Knuckles has been slightly consistent too even in front of Mario.

It has also been suggested by a few people that Shadow only does well just for looking like Sonic and badass; not many even believe for a second that Sonic Adventure 2 Battle is a good game.
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*is Dranze*
Krahen Prophet did a fatality.

Going back to the Neku thing, main reason I like him more is because I've actually played through TWEWY and haven't played Disgaea!

And it's true that Neku's an unlikable jerk early, but he gets much better later.
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Moltar Status: Turning the wheel of fate!
Contest Analysis Crew Archives: http://thecrew.speedrunwiki.com/

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I do think if Matt would have been replaced with, say, Jay Solano then Amaterasu probably wouldn't have even made it to round two.
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift

Why do we believe in Nintendo/Sonic LFF again?

I want hard proof, not theories.

Because while it's not proven, I and other people feel it is more likely to exist than not.
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

Knuckles looked awful in 2007 and 2008.

And Shadow didn't do that great. He was closer to Pyramid Head than he was to Auron.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

my memory sucks, when did CTDS come out and anyone have any clue as to what kind of sales it had in europe?
Cos thats the weak point really, if CTDS appealed somewhat to Europe they might pick up a little right?
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Shakes Fist!

Because while it's not proven, I and other people feel it is more likely to exist than not.

But why...? I've seen no reason to believe it other than people trying to make excuses for Shadow sucking.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

Because every game Shadow has appeared in has been most popular on Nintendo consoles.


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The difference between arrogance and confidence is confidence acts rather than speaks.
Sir Chris

And...? Console SFF is tenuous at best.
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"Hold on a minute! That testimony stinks!"
"Witness! You can't just say 'Hello' and expect us to get anywhere! I want you to testify!"

I'm a bit surprised by Ammy's support as well. Amaterasu probably benefits from 4-ways, whereas Shadow' will look better 1 on 1. And I'd still pick Shadow in a neutral 4-way situation.

What really puzzles me tough, is the lack of unanimity for Zack/Yuna. When people mention Wario breaking 40% on him they seem to forget that Cecil was in the same poll.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=3300
http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=2915

Why would anyone think Yuna's stronger?

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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

Based on 2006, Yuna = Aerith essentially. If you think Aerith could beat Zack, then it's possible Yuna could beat Zack.
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"Spoil it for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if he's going to be another Auron or another Sin." - Soul about Jecht vs. PW

I think Nintendo/Sonic SFF is minimal at best. Sonic may have some ties now because of Brawl, but the rest I don't see.

Sonic couldn't SFF Luigi in 2006
Shadow held up against Mario in 2003
Sonic also held up against Samus in 2004

I think that's all of the Nintendo/Sonic matches before four-ways.
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Sonic couldn't SFF Luigi in 2006

And you figure if it shows up anywhere, it shows up here.
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"So cold. I am always by your side."
"There ain't no gettin' off of this train we on!"

I thought Knuckles did around expected really; just a tad above or equal to Rikku, and got as expected on Zelda.
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*is Dranze*
Krahen Prophet did a fatality.

What really puzzles me tough, is the lack of unanimity for Zack/Yuna. When people mention Wario breaking 40% on him they seem to forget that Cecil was in the same poll.

Because old and new Square have so much overlap...

Again I'll ask Chun Li or Wario?

Also remember that Yuna did better on Chun Li, think it as my way of negating any possible SFF between Zack and Cecil.
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I thought Knuckles did around expected really; just a tad above or equal to Rikku

Virtually no one in 2007 expected this, especially with Vaan there. Yoshi/Knuckles was debatable, not Rikku/Knuckles.

And the fact that Knuckles couldn't even beat LFF'd Zelda tells how far he's fallen.
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"I can set you free, mate."
"My freedom was forfeit long ago!"

From: LeonhartFour | #164
And...? Console SFF is tenuous at best.

Perhaps, but in the first four contests the stats project MM to win over Samus every time except the year he happened to meet with Link. Not that it means much, with year to year variance and all. But still.
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"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift

It's always made sense intuitively in the sense that many (younger) Nintendo fans would vote Sonic in the absence of a Nintendo character they know in the poll. As for evidence from polls, it's not really any one big poll that proves it as much as a collection of small things that each argue for it a little bit. Link/Shadow, Shadow/Bowser, Knuckles/Rikku, Sonic/Kirby- each of these feels like they warrant some explanation beyond "Sonic Team has fallen" or "Sonic sucks in 4-ways." The biggest one match probably is, and I know you won't like this, Link/Megaman. That match showed these kinds of intuitive fanbase relationships can exist.

The other thing is I think you and I view SFF somewhat differently. I see SFF (well, overlap anyway) as the rule and not the exception. Every match has overlap, and every match has differing amounts of overlap.....the hard part is figuring out what exactly those overlap relationships are.
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

Samus boosted big time in 2004, which may be partly to blame for Samus > MM that year.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

I think that's all of the Nintendo/Sonic matches before four-ways.

You forgot some:
SMW/Sonic 2 - Sonic was completely destroyed, but it's hard to say whether that's SFF or Sonic games just being weak.
Ganon/Robotnik - Robotnik performed worse than CATS was projected to.

So there is some evidence, but nothing too convincing. If anything, I'd say it's just Mario/Sonic matches that have weird results.
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Congrats to KrahenProfit

Ganon/Robotnik - Robotnik performed worse than CATS was projected to.

Well duh, CATS was projected to beat Ganondorf!
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Never forget - 12/10/2009
HOPE

Link/Shadow, Shadow/Bowser, Knuckles/Rikku, Sonic/Kirby- each of these feels like they warrant some explanation beyond "Sonic Team has fallen" or "Sonic sucks in 4-ways."

The only one that requires any explanation is Sonic/Kirby, and the explanation is "bandwagoning." Unless you're suggesting rSFF in a match between Sonic and Kirby...? I hope not. And I hope you're not suggesting there was more LFF in Yoshi/Knuckles than in Rikku/Vaan.

Link/Mega Man feels like a freak accident more than a trend. Heck, Cloud doubled Sonic in 2003. It's not horribly unprecedented. Mega Man didn't look as great as he had in 2002 and 2003 in 2005 either.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

Based on 2006, Yuna = Aerith essentially. If you think Aerith could beat Zack, then it's possible Yuna could beat Zack.

You know I had Zack losing to Wario last year (I don't agree that, at the time, this was a stupid pick, which I believed was said earlier), and lord knows I would have expected Aeris to beat the hell out of Zack back then.

After his performance, though, I'm not sure where the lingering doubt comes from. Scoring high on fodder, not folding against the top characters. He's more than proved himself, IMO.


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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

SMW/Sonic 2 - Sonic was completely destroyed, but it's hard to say whether that's SFF or Sonic games just being weak.

Looking at the last Games Contest, it appears that Sonic games are just weak.
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"So cold. I am always by your side."
"There ain't no gettin' off of this train we on!"

After his performance, though, I'm not sure where the lingering doubt comes from. Scoring high on fodder, not folding against the top characters. He's more than proved himself, IMO.

It's not like Aerith is weak though.
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"But you have been given freedom. Freedom to be...outside."
"I am lightning...the rain transformed."

Didn't FFVII obliterate FFVI in that favourites poll? I don"t see why Cecil couldn't hold Zack back. Besides, he's sort of new Square anyway. I know him through the DS game, at least.
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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

FFVII obliterates lots of games. Games and characters are different though.
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"Spoil it for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if he's going to be another Auron or another Sin." - Soul about Jecht vs. PW

It's not like Aerith is weak though.

She couldn't do anything near what Zack did last year though. And even if she could, that still wouldn' t mean anything. Yuna=Aeris stems from 2006. Yuna performing strictly worse than Zack is from 2008
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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

Megaman getting doubled by Link is out of character with MM before 2006, and very out of character with the way he throttled Snake that year. That is why Link/Megaman SFF looks convincing- because without it, Snake looks truly dreadful.

If you do take the raw stats at face value there, Crono is projected to get 62.69% on Snake in 2004, and 63.73% on Frog, which isn't too much lower than what I'd expect Crono to be worth on Frog. It would mean that Snake/Frog really wasn't much of an anomaly at all.

I put Knuckles/Rikku there because I think an unhindered Knuckles should be capable of dispatching a Rikku being tied down by Vaan without difficulty. That he didn't suggests that Yoshi held him down somewhat. Similarly, the fact that Knuckles couldn't capitalize on Mario/Zelda SFF suggests that Knuckles was also involved in the LFF, just to a lesser degree.
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

From: HaRRicH | Posted: 12/18/2009 3:04:53 PM | #134
Meh, keep known trolls away from the Crew. They don't need a platform to stir their controversy and the Crew is pretty looked up to.

Not to sound like I'm starting a fight or anything, but:

4. Meeks54

I used to think MWC was pretty annoying, and so did everyone else. But then I gave the guy a fair chance, and he ended up being one of my favorite people ever.

I swear this guy is my twin. His two favorite teams in any sport are the Yankees and the Colts, shares a ton of my opinions on video games and has more or less entered "everything he posts is funny" mode. I know being brash gets to a lot of people, but it works the other way around when a really brash guy is saying a bunch of stuff you agree with. It becomes really funny. Won me over last summer, then the Yankees and Colts happened. Now even when he goes off about something I disagree with (politics, just as a random example), I can just appreciate it since I know he's just trying to make people laugh. Strikes me as probably being a really shy guy in real life, so he acts silly online. Welcome to the internet, where damn near everyone has done this. I wish he'd get on AIM or something, because I can tell from what little he's shared about his personal life that he's a really good guy.

I know a lot of people still think he's a thorn, but he's not. On a side note, I was over a buddy's house last night to watch the first half of the Giants/Eagles game, and guys never change. Every single one of us watches out favorite team the EXACT same way. I love it.

The guy is *not* a troll, at least not anymore. He would be a great asset to the KREW and would be legitimately funny.

If Vlado can be on it for a year, there's no reason for MWC to not be.
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`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.~*ST*~.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´`·.,¸¸,.·´
"We're only gonna score 17 points?" -LOL Tom Brady

Yeah, MWC is not a troll. He believes what he says, and is just very outspoken about it.
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

Yuna performing strictly worse than Zack is from 2008

Yuna wasn't in the contest last year.

Megaman getting doubled by Link is out of character with MM before 2006, and very out of character with the way he throttled Snake that year. That is why Link/Megaman SFF looks convincing- because without it, Snake looks truly dreadful.

Snake was truly dreadful that year. He did worse on Mega Man than Zero did.

If you do take the raw stats at face value there, Crono is projected to get 62.69% on Snake in 2004, and 63.73% on Frog, which isn't too much lower than what I'd expect Crono to be worth on Frog. It would mean that Snake/Frog really wasn't much of an anomaly at all.

Considering Samus got 70% on Frog the next year, you shouldn't expect him to do that well on Crono.

Similarly, the fact that Knuckles couldn't capitalize on Mario/Zelda SFF suggests that Knuckles was also involved in the LFF, just to a lesser degree.

Or just that he's not that strong anymore, just like the rest of Sonic Team looked in 4-ways. They've looked awful in 4-ways the last two years without exception, and you can't explain that away. That's a trend, not a series of flukes that apparently happens to them in every match they're in. I don't think SFF/LFF is as prevalent as we like to think it is. The trends seem to indicate that Knuckles and Shadow are just weaker than they used to be. I think it's just a coincidence that they keep facing Nintendo characters.

The guy is *not* a troll, at least not anymore.

Just because you have the same tastes doesn't mean he's not a troll. Reading his sports topics is painful.
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"Spoil it for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if he's going to be another Auron or another Sin." - Soul about Jecht vs. PW

I also think Jecht (along with Red and, to a lesser extent, Charizard) is being massively overrated here. I don't see him anywhere near Rikku, honestly. That anyone would think he could be stronger than Tidus is just baffling to me. I've got him losing to Phoenix Wright (though I'm not at all sure about this).
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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

Well he used to be a troll, he admitted as much himself. But he isn't close to being one anymore, the guy is Lucid Faia Lite these days. I mean he hasn't even asked to be on the crew, but if he does the way he acted last year shouldn't bear any relevance at all. Guy's been awesome for awhile now.

And on Amy/Shadow, I usually just pick the character I like most in tossups so I went with Amy. Plus Shadow has looked so bad since the 2004 match with Tidus, and looks that much worse every year. I do agree 1v1 will restore some order, but I'd also pick Amy to beat Tidus.
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`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.~*ST*~.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´`·.,¸¸,.·´
"WHAT'S THE MATTER, SCARED??"

Shadow may have been SFF'd by Link, but probably not much considering Sonic Team's embarrassed itself since 2007 and Shadow hasn't looked that good since 2004. Auron/Shadow in R1 was nice for him, but I don't buy why Bowser would cut him down badly when we've seen Shadow impress against Wario and Mario while being uncertain if Link hurt him or not. Shadow has more of an excuse to be hurt by Nintendo now since 2007 since he's another avatar in the Mario & Sonic Olympics games and an appearance as an AT in SSBB (oh yeah, bringing it back, haha), but Sonic's still a distinct series from a distinct company and Shadow came in a time when Sega and Nintendo weren't really associated together anymore.

Also, comparing Sonic to Nintendo isn't the same as comparing Mega Man to Nintendo. Mega Man originated on the NES and had like his first ten games on Nintendo-systems; he was at a point where many people considered Mega Man to be Nintendo's property for years. Sonic originated on the Genesis and was meant to directly compete with Nintendo; there was never any mistake over whether or not Sonic was Nintendo's or Sega's property. Yes, we can say Sonic and Nintendo had a competitive connection, but we've never seen that mean anything contest-wise. We can alternatively say Mega Man and Nintendo had a connection of acceptance; Mega Man was an honorary member of Nintendo during the NES and SNES years. 3D-Sonic is probably an honorary member for this generation, but not 2D-Sonic or 3D-Sonic until lately. 3D-Sonic is also probably of this status because he is Mario's rival-turned-friend now...not so much because of his games, which is how Mega Man earned it.

Not to say Nintendo fans couldn't enjoy Sonic games, but there's a clear difference in how Mega Man and Sonic became accepted by Nintendo fans.
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T E A M C H O C O L A T E
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7355/64590879.png

From: consolefreak | Posted: 12/18/2009 4:14:02 PM | #188
I also think Jecht (along with Red and, to a lesser extent, Charizard) is being massively overrated here.

Agree 100%, though the Phoenix match is a total crapshoot. People are notorious for bailing on joke/cult characters at the drop of a hat, and *if* Charizard beats The Duke (which is no guarantee at all) he isn't coming close to Kratos. I wouldn't be at all surprised if The Duke won this fourpack.
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"Spoil [FFX] for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if [Jecht's] going to be another Auron or another Sin." -Soul on PW vs Jecht

Aw yeah, Assist Trophy boost
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"So cold. I am always by your side."
"There ain't no gettin' off of this train we on!"

Link SFFs absolutely everything on this site. When you're the most popular character(s), you overlap with everything else.
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`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.~*ST*~.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.·´`·.,¸¸,.·´
All you love is a lie.

Yeah I mean 2007 then; the poll I posted originally.
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Champagne after a victory is a nice treat. Champagne after a defeat is a necessity. - Winston Churchill

I doubt Jecht is more than a low midcarder, but that should be enough to beat Phoenix. Wright-o is a low midcarder at best.
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"Stay with me until the end. Please."
"Not until the end. Always."

Agreed that Sonic/Nintendo overlap would be different from Megaman/Nintendo overlap. I'd expect the former to occur mostly among younger gamers (i.e. people who started on the Gamecube/Wii, N64 at earliest) while the latter would occur mostly among older gamers (NES and SNES). As for Bowser/Shdaow, it's Bowser's performance that makes me look twice there, not Shadow's. He did 3% worse than Auron on Crono in 2006, and gets 60-40'd a year later?
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6 years later, Crono's quest to defeat Sephiroth -- Round 1: Missingno
'Till shade is gone, 'till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared....

Bowser is so weird. He could beat Sora or fail to break 40%, and neither would even surprise me.
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"Spoil [FFX] for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if [Jecht's] going to be another Auron or another Sin." -Soul on PW vs Jecht

And man do I love that SOWL sig. Best unintentional comedy ever.
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"MMOs are not good. Someone can always mess with how you're playing the game." -The Real Truth living up to his name

oh, anyone thinking lightning could break 35% on Sonic?
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Shakes Fist!

Maybe it was just Bowser weakening. He beat Ryu soundly in 2005 (Villains Contest boost or not), and then lost to him cleanly twice in 2007. Say what you want about Nintendo LFF, but Bowser got 59% on Ryu in 2005. Ryu got 36.30% in 2007 in their first round match. Do you really think that of the 35% left between Toad and Mewtwo, Ryu only gets less than 5% of that and Bowser gets more than 30% of it? Either way, that match ends up closer than 2005 as a result.

And another thing: At one point did Luigi become able to beat Bowser? I could almost guarantee it wasn't 2006. Was it in 2007? Maybe. Luigi was awfully close to Ganondorf and beat Bacondorf.
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"Spoil it for me. I'm never going to play that game so I want to know if he's going to be another Auron or another Sin." - Soul about Jecht vs. PW