GameFAQs Contests

I'd argue that CT was affected by FFVII or else the game would have defeated SM64 in round 3.

I'd argue back since SM64 beat CT despite SMW2:YI the round before, unless you're considering Goldeneye in R3 as a disadvantage to SM64 (reasonable but uncertain)...in which case it's hard to say.
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From: HaRRicH | #151
I'd argue that CT was affected by FFVII or else the game would have defeated SM64 in round 3.

I'd argue back since SM64 beat CT despite SMW2:YI the round before, unless you're considering Goldeneye in R3 as a disadvantage to SM64 (reasonable but uncertain)...in which case it's hard to say.

this is why we need 1v1 back
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I'd argue back since SM64 beat CT despite SMW2:YI the round before, unless you're considering Goldeneye in R3 as a disadvantage to SM64 (reasonable but uncertain)...in which case it's hard to say.

GoldenEye was right behind OoT and SM64 on the N64, it's not a stretch to think that it would affect it.
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You do know that the entire top half minus FFVII is underrated? I'd argue that CT was affected by FFVII or else the game would have defeated SM64 in round 3. I also see no reason at calling FFVII weaker now than it was in 2k4, though I can see the arguements.

Sure, we obviously can't take LttP vs FFVII seriously in the last two rounds, because only crazy people like me voted for LttP or FFX in the final and the semifinal was three Nintendo games against FFVII. But the double LFF round before that, where LttP got 36.6% on FFVII, probably isn't too far from the truth, and it's a huge drop from 2k4.

I also agree that FFVII probably affected CT in the second round - but no more, and, oddly enough, probably less than 007 affected Mario 64, based on the first round. In a 1v1 match you'd either have to distrust fourways completely (reasonable, but doesn't make for good arguments) to take CT over Mario 64.

It seems unlikely that FFVII stayed the same while Ocarina boosted through the roof to me, especially given how far CT and FFVI fell and how close in time they are to FFVII (you can play the same game with LttP and Ocarina if you like). The much more likely situation is that FFVII fell part of the way and Ocarina made up some ground to turn that 54/46 the other way.
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Granted, nearly every pre-FFVII game was fairly pathetic in the games contest (sans Mario World and maybe Mario 64) based on pre-contest expectations, but that doesn't excuse how godawful CT was. Saying CT made out better than FFVI (true) and only a bit worse than LttP (also true) obscures both a) how much the three big Mario games caught up to an surpassed CT (and in an argument about Crono/Mario, no less!) and b) how terrible pre-1997 games were in the games contest.

But it doesn't matter how much the old games fell as a group- as long as CT did better than its peer games (and the closest thing to a peer game for CT is obviously FFVI), then it looks like CTDS did help. Also, there's another very simple explanation for the old games doing worse than expected- CT overperformed in the 2004 final. We've seen this exact type of overperformance before, and the trends in that match also back that up. Also, the older games really DIDN'T do worse than expected relative to the modern games with the exceptions of FFVII and OOT, which looked much further ahead of the rest of the field than they did in 2004. And SSBM/CT overperforming in 2004 explains that one quite well.

Also, CT and FFVI both underwent big changes in their trends as they became weaker. As of 2009, the same thing happened to FFVII (one of the reasons I agree with you that it dropped). The Old-School Nintendo games, however, did not exhibit this same shift in trends. They are not as good as the modern Nintendo games with the day vote, but they are, as they were in 2004, right around average in day vote power. That's a sign that they did not fall very much.

As for the 3 Mario games doing well.....3 Mario games? What exactly did SMB3 and SMW do to prove themselves besides get curbstomped by FFVII and LTTP? As for SM64.....how strong was it in 2004? SM64 doesn't belong to the older generation of games in any case.

Sure, we obviously can't take LttP vs FFVII seriously in the last two rounds, because only crazy people like me voted for LttP or FFX in the final and the semifinal was three Nintendo games against FFVII. But the double LFF round before that, where LttP got 36.6% on FFVII, probably isn't too far from the truth, and it's a huge drop from 2k4.

It probably isn't too far from the truth. I'd argue that it should be a higher because SM64 went 50/50 with LTTP while FFVI got SFF'd into the ground, but there isn't that much LFF between classic Nintendo games the vast majority of the site has played. CT being in the 35-37% range on FFVII now seems pretty reasonable.

I also agree that FFVII probably affected CT in the second round - but no more, and, oddly enough, probably less than 007 affected Mario 64, based on the first round. In a 1v1 match you'd either have to distrust fourways completely (reasonable, but doesn't make for good arguments) to take CT over Mario 64.

I wouldn't take CT over Mario 64. I would take it over SMB3 and SMW at the moment. Looking at 2004, we find that CT beat SMB3 by less than Crono beat Mario, so it's possible for the strongest Mario game to beat CT and for Mario to still lose to Crono.
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It seems unlikely that FFVII stayed the same while Ocarina boosted through the roof to me, especially given how far CT and FFVI fell and how close in time they are to FFVII (you can play the same game with LttP and Ocarina if you like). The much more likely situation is that FFVII fell part of the way and Ocarina made up some ground to turn that 54/46 the other way.

Agreed on this one also. Actually, for fun, if we assume OOT and Mario the character fared relatively similarly between 2004 and now (with Mario boosting up a lot more in 2005 and then deboosting back in 2008), then since OOT gained over 6% on FFVII in that time period, and Crono beat Mario with a bit over 53% in 2004, that would indicate that CT would have to have gained on FFVII over the period from 2004 to 2009 for Crono to still beat Mario. The more OOT boosted (above and beyond the strength gap between Mario 2004 and Mario now), the less well CT has to do relative to FFVII.

How did CT do relative to FFVII? Looking at the direct 2004 and 2009 matches looks awful for CT, but we don't know how big the overperformance in 2004 was. If we look at other matches instead....

First, remember how strong FFVII and New Square was in 2003/4- it was probably about as strong as 2003, and in 2003 we have Aeris getting 47% on Sonic, Sephiroth annhilating Mario with 62%, etc. New Square seems to have fallen off a lot too, not just Old Square. Obviously up through 2008 Old Square took a lot more damage, but in 2009 FFVII's trends fell off the map. It went dead even with the ASV with Chrono Trigger! Meanwhile, CT got CTDS.

All that still adds up to Mario being a favorite, but I haven't said otherwise since CT lost to SM64. It also adds up to Mario/Crono probably being fairly close now, and Crono having some winning chances.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

From: L33t_Rappa_Sam | #116
At this point, I don't even think that would boost Crono to Mario's level, though Crono/Samus could be a good match in that scenario.

I think it'd take a huge Nintendo deboost that would knock Mario down a few pegs, and that's unlikely at this point, since even with the Wii failing Mario's pretty much single-handedly keeping the thing afloat.

Would make more sense were it not blatantly obvious that Samus reams Mario indirectly.

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It's been over two months since our last 100k+ poll.
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Even with all SFF completely removed, Mario would beat Samus with 53% minimum. Indirectly stronger my ass, Samus is a solid sixth place, or fifth if you think Snake isn't that strong in a 1v1 environment (granted, the last 1v1 match we had besides Link/Cloud and FF7/OoT was Samus/Snake, but it's been over three years so Snake's probably passed Samus and maybe even Mario by now).

I can see Mario beating Crono with over 55% at their next 1v1 meeting. Despite the downfall of Nintendo, Mario's still the only one bringing anything so I don't see him falling despite representing Nintendo, and rather than boost Crono significantly all CTDS really did was prolong the inevitable fall from grace a couple years from now.
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Mario only got 54% against Samus in 2008, albeit with Link and Crono in the poll. But even with them there, it seems pretty absurd to believe Samus was helped by the SFF relative to Mario.
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Remember when Ngamer seeded the characters in the 2007/2008 contest? Well I tried the same for the 2009 contest. I have no idea how to handle 2001-2003, also remember that I took account the add/remove feature.

1972-1988

1) Tetris
16) Space Invaders

8) Donkey Kong
9) Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out!!

4) Mega Man 2
13) The Oregon Trail

5) Pac-Man
12) Pong

6) Metroid
11) Contra

3) The Legend of Zelda
14) Dragon Warrior III

7) Duck Hunt
10) Ninja Gaiden

2) Super Mario Bros.
15) Galaga

1989-1991

1) Super Mario Bros. 3
16) Tecmo Super Bowl

8) The Secret of Monkey Island
9) SimCity

5) Street Fighter II
12) Castlevania III

4) Sonic the Hedgehog
13) Civilization

6) Final Fantasy
11) Battletoads

3) Super Mario World
14) Prince of Persia

7) Mega Man 3
10) River City Ransom

2) Final Fantasy II (IV)
15) Crystalis

1992-1994

1) LoZ: A Link to the Past
16) Streets of Rage II

8) Doom
9) Donkey Kong Country

5) Sonic the Hedgehog 3
12) Super Mario Kart

4) Super Metroid
13) Gunstar Heroes

6) Secret of Mana
11) Mortal Kombat 2 (Super Street Fighter II Turbo)

3) Sonic the Hedgehog 2
14) Shining Force II

7) Mega Man X
10) LoZ: Link’s Awakening

2) Final Fantasy III (VI)
15) Phantasy Star IV

1995-1997

1) Final Fantasy VII
16) Suikoden

8) Mario Kart 64
9) Star Fox 64

5) Super Mario RPG
12) Resident Evil 2

4) GoldenEye 007
13) Donkey Kong Country 2 (Fallout)

6) Castlevania: SotN
11) Resident Evil

3) Super Mario 64
14) Kirby Super Star

7) Earthbound
10) SMW2: Yoshi’s Island

2) Chrono Trigger
15) Lufia II

1998-2000

1) LoZ: Ocarina of Time
16) Chrono Cross

8) Half-Life
9) Final Fantasy IX

5) Starcraft
12) Soul Calibur (Super Smash Bros.)

4) Final Fantasy VIII
13) Xenogears

6) LoZ: Majora’s Mask
11) Perfect Dark

3) Pokemon RBY
14) Banjo-Kazooie

7) Pokemon GS
10) Final Fantasy Tactics

2) Metal Gear Solid
15) Deus Ex (Panzer Dragoon Saga)

2001-2003

1) Final Fantasy X
16) Silent Hill

8) Metal Gear Solid 2
9) TES III: Morrowind

5) GTA: Vice City
12) Kingdom Hearts

4) Metroid Prime
13) Paper Mario

6) LoZ: The Wind Waker
11) Disgaea

3) Super Smash Bros. Melee
14) Fire Emblem (Golden Sun)

7) Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
10) Diablo 2

2) Halo
15) Grand Theft Auto III

2004-2006

1) LoZ: Twilight Princess
16) Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney

8) Half-Life 2
9) Final Fantasy XII

5) Kingdom Hearts 2
12) Gears of War

4) Resident Evil 4
13) Shadow of the Colossus

6) Metal Gear Solid 3
11) World of Warcraft

3) Halo 2
14) Okami

7) TES IV: Oblivion
10) God of War

2) GTA: San Andreas
15) Tales of Symphonia

2007-2009

1) Super Smash Bros. Brawl
16) Street Fighter IV (The World Ends With You)

8) Grand Theft Auto IV
9) Persona 4

5) Super Mario Galaxy
12) Pokemon DP

4) Call of Duty 4
13) Team Fortress 2

6) Halo 3
11) Left 4 Dead

3) Fallout 3
14) Mass Effect

7) LittleBigPlanet
10) Bioshock

2) Metal Gear Solid 4
15) Portal

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Cool stuff.
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Oh jeez, Mario vs Crono talk again? Bleh.

Wait, what's this...

Remember when Ngamer seeded the characters in the 2007/2008 contest?

Yes!

Well I tried the same for the 2009 contest.

Awesome! *saves for use on the x-stats site*

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Heh, still no mention of a contest.

Maybe instead of the Character Contest, SBAllen is reviving the Quote Contest!
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I'm almost convinced by now that a joke entry would win the quote contest. Something like Link saying "Hyah!"
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

"..." - Chrono Trigger wins it all over Navi's "Hey!"
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From: L33t_Rappa_Sam | #159
Even with all SFF completely removed, Mario would beat Samus with 53% minimum. Indirectly stronger my ass, Samus is a solid sixth place, or fifth if you think Snake isn't that strong in a 1v1 environment (granted, the last 1v1 match we had besides Link/Cloud and FF7/OoT was Samus/Snake, but it's been over three years so Snake's probably passed Samus and maybe even Mario by now).

I can see Mario beating Crono with over 55% at their next 1v1 meeting. Despite the downfall of Nintendo, Mario's still the only one bringing anything so I don't see him falling despite representing Nintendo, and rather than boost Crono significantly all CTDS really did was prolong the inevitable fall from grace a couple years from now.

Mario puts up 48, if he is lucky if SFF is taken out of it. Samus is easily the fourth, big drop from Clinkiroth, then Mario and Snake are fighting for 5.


Link
Cloud
Seph
Samus
Mario
Snake
Crono
MM



Sonic


Anything else is a joke list.

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Samus was clearly indirectly stronger than Mario once upon a time -- she performed better in 2003 against Link than Mario did in 2002 (though WW-Link brings this into question), and she did better against Cloud in 2004 than Mario against Sephiroth in 2003. That said, I don't know if it's still the case...have we seen anything since Mario's direct thrashing in 2005 suggesting Samus is still indirectly stronger?
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I think Mario was stronger than Samus in 2002 and 2005 on, though I will concede that Samus was probably stronger 2003-2004. Hell, I was even one of those idiots who took Samus > Mario in 2005, but Mario beefed up into his own world in 2005, and I truly don't think Nintendo hate applies as much to Mario, especially now that Mario games are what are keeping the Wii afloat until the next Zelda game comes out.

I'm really interested to see what Other M does for Samus, though. A radically different Metroid game for a game-starved Wii. Could be her biggest game since Metroid Prime. Then again, could do little for her like most Metroid games, which are usually pretty underhyped (besides Prime 1) and go unnoticed. Which makes Samus' strength a bit surprising and probably one that relies a lot on character design, like Dante or Ryu H.
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And I just realized that I picked Smash games to win both Game Contests (Melee for 2004, Brawl for 2009). Go figure.

Still doesn't beat me picking Luigi to win 2003, though. And for the hell of it, I was one of those who chose L-Block to repeat in 2008.

Anyone else here choose some odd winners for contests?
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Mario vs. Crono is the worst argument.. There's only one or two people here who would pick Crono there, or give him a fighting chance - and neither one is known to be reasonable when discussing said character!

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Besides, Vincent/Crono is the new Mario/Crono.
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Did anyone else completely forget that Crono/Vincent first met in 2005, where Crono got 55% on him? Because I definitely did! I also forgot that the final was Mario/Crono part 4, not counting CT/Mario games.

To Crono's credit, he's only down 3-2 against Mario in match-ups, though he really lucked out in that last one, while CT is 5-3 (3 Mario games in 2004, beat YI twice while losing to SM64 twice). So you could really stretch it to say that overall, Crono is ahead of Mario 7-6, though between 2008 and some of the Game Contest match-ups, that's really stretching things. But I'm sure Crono fanboys will take what they can get.

And now I need to move on before I spend all day in this topic.
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Vincent overperformed in that match (relative to earlier rounds) because Advent Children was released days before his match.
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Hm? 45% for Vincent on Crono in 2005 really doesn't seem out of place...Crono was right around Sonic and Mega Man, still stronger than Snake, and still weaker than Mario. It's not like he was super strong that year...just about strong enough to get 55% on Vincent.

I don't think we've seen anything since 2004 to suggest that Samus is stronger than Mario, and a significant amount that says otherwise (like, y'know, THREE matches that Mario beat her in). You can make an argument for Samus in 2003 and she definitely looked stronger in 2004, but not since.
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Well 2006 Samus slapped Steroid Snake like he was nothing. She was pretty respectable in both 2007 and 2008, but we can't really say one way or another.
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We've seen rather little to judge Samus's strength since 2004. In 2005 she faced had SFF matches with Mario and Ganondorf, in 2006 she had to deal with being the obvious favorite in the Female Bracket (another example of the obvious winner underperforming), and then blasted Snake pretty easily, but again with the specter of SFF hanging over the match. In 2007 Samus put up an impressive performance in Cloud/Samus/Megaman/Ryu, and followed that up with beating Sephiroth with Link and Cloud in the poll.

In 2008 she put up 55% on Crono/Vincent- since Pikachu was also in that poll, I'd guess that 55% number is probably about fair. Then she got last place in the Nintendo vs. Crono match, but did much better than nearly anyone could have expected of her in putting up 46% on Mario directly, despite being at the bottom of triple SFF no less, whereas previously she'd only managed 40%.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

And Mario's 3 wins over Samus don't really mean much here, unless you think he wouldn't have won in 2004 also.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

From: red sox 777 | #177
We've seen rather little to judge Samus's strength since 2004. In 2005 she faced had SFF matches with Mario and Ganondorf, in 2006 she had to deal with being the obvious favorite in the Female Bracket (another example of the obvious winner underperforming), and then blasted Snake pretty easily, but again with the specter of SFF hanging over the match. In 2007 Samus put up an impressive performance in Cloud/Samus/Megaman/Ryu, and followed that up with beating Sephiroth with Link and Cloud in the poll.

In 2008 she put up 55% on Crono/Vincent- since Pikachu was also in that poll, I'd guess that 55% number is probably about fair. Then she got last place in the Nintendo vs. Crono match, but did much better than nearly anyone could have expected of her in putting up 46% on Mario directly, despite being at the bottom of triple SFF no less, whereas previously she'd only managed 40%.

If you mean the SFF all Noble 9 share, then sure, anything else and I have no clue what you are talking about.

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I mean Brawl SFF. It's been theorized by a long time that Samus stole away Snake's new Nintendo fanbase in that match. Who knows though.....if you alternatively think Samus boosted a lot along with the rest of Nintendo in 2005, she could just be that strong.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

Snake was announced in Brawl by that time.
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I don't think Mario would have won in 2004. Samus looked absolutely amazing that contest, culminating with 41% on Cloud, while Crono/Mario wasn't even close and then Crono didn't do too hot against Link (38%). Extrapolated stats have Mario getting 44% on her, and that doesn't even seem unreasonable given how dominant she was.

There's a *reason* she was the huge favorite in 2005, after all. Irrational and lucky folks like me who picked Mario really didn't have much to go on.
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Excuse me, Crono was closer to 37% on Link, making the pair look worse in comparison to Samus.
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From: RPGuy96 | #183
Excuse me, Crono was closer to 37% on Link, making the pair look worse in comparison to Samus.

How many times must I tell everyone, you can NEVER use a match Link is involved in to determine anyone elses strength, it does not work like that, since he sffs everyone in the world, and god mods this contest.
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Well, post-boost Mario ends up pretty close to pre-boost Samus if you hold either Cloud/Sephiroth or Crono constant from 2004 to 2005. If you think they dropped, Mario looks worse relative to pre-boost Samus, and if you think they rose, Mario looks better relative to pre-boost Samus.

I find the idea of Samus dropping in the year of the Nintendo Boost pretty hard to believe, even if I supported it back in 2005. And while Mario/Samus was certainly not obvious, after seeing the 60-40 SFF beatdown in 2005, Samus winning in 2004 seems really unlikely.

There's not enough in the way of solid data unobstructed by SFF and LFF in the recent years to settle this, but I think Mario and Samus have been pretty close (probably within a 2% edge either way) in indirect strength since 2005. Samus's performances looked better than Mario's every round in 2008 to me (other than the semifinal match as she lost to him there, but strangely that was the match that was also the most impressive for Samus relative to Mario that whole contest, as strange as that sounds), so I'd be inclined to spot her a small 2% or so edge right now. It's really anyone's game though.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

Sadly, this is one of those things we'll probably never truly know, unless they both end up facing Cloud or Sephiroth in a 1v1 environment during the same contest.

So far, of the Noble Nine, Snake, Crono, Mega Man, and Sonic haven't won contests. If we remove previous winners, obviously Snake blows away the competition, but if we removed him (using him winning the male bracket as a flimsy excuse or whatever), who'd win the next contest? One of the Noble Three, one of the Elites like Vincent or Squall, or a joke like WCC?
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It's sad L-Block won a real contest before any of them have even won a title.
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For what it's worth, just reminiscing over big NN-upsets, Solid and Sonic are tied for having the most losses against a non-NN'er at three. Solid lost to L-Block three times (though only after beating it in their first match-up) while Sonic lost to L-Block, Auron, and Kirby (and is the only NN'er to lose to two different non-NN'ers in the same contest). Crono has only lost to Vincent and Mega Man has only lost to WCC (though Zero should be considered). Also, if we want to call Mega Man and MMX equals, MMX lost to Zack Fair (though Link and Mario should be considered).

So, just based off of that for who has tarnished the Noble Nine the least, it should probably go Crono >= Mega Man > Solid >> Sonic. That's a pretty poor way to rank them strength-wise though...!
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It seems pretty good if we just take Solid out of the picture though!

To me though, the only winners we've had are Link, Cloud, and L-Block.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

From: red sox 777 | #189
It seems pretty good if we just take Solid out of the picture though!

To me though, the only winners we've had are Link, Cloud, and L-Block.

Take out L Block. Add FF VII, OoT, and Legend of Zelda.

Seph won a joke contest, so who cares
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At this point, I feel like you've got to consider the Square near-elites for winning a championship if only Crono, Megs and Sonic remain. Megs seems like the strongest of them all to me, but not enough that I wouldn't rule out an upset from Squall or Vincent.

Incidentally, this reminds me that a Sora/Crono match would be hilarious to watch. 8000 vote turnaround, maybe?
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I hope we never see that match, ever. The most likely result is that Crono puts the match away in the first hour, but even then, we'd have to watch his percentage collapse all day long and he'd probably lose the ASV outright- no I do not want to see this.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

I'd hate to see it as someone who likes Crono, but the hilarity would be immense there. Crono would look like Kefka with the ASV, considering how nasty Kingdom Hearts is with the kiddies.
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I do. I'd personally get a laugh from how hilarious it can get. Not to mention, Sora would likely perform better against Mega Man now, so Sora could potentially upset Crono.

BTW, if we're talking about cutting previous champions, I'd like to see something similar to the tournament of the champions. Place the six characters (Link, Cloud, Seph, Mario, Samus, Snake) automaticallly into the tournament, and the last two spots go to the finalists. So something like this;

Main Bracket Final
SF1 Winner
SF2 Winner

Cloud
Mario

Sephiroth
Snake

Link
Samus
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I like Crono but I think it would be a fun match to watch.
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Hmm...going by a seeding system, you'd get...

Link
SF2 Winner

Sephiroth
Snake

Mario
Samus (ARGH)

Cloud
SF1 Winner

...I think. Never got the hang of that one. :P
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sora vs crono would be funny, though if crono pops up in KHIII i wonder if he'd have a better ASV.
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We can just have the final of the main bracket be the first QF of TOC, and it can still easily work.
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The Gamer In Me
My Signature's broken, just like your front door.

I still want to see Magus/Master Chief though. I figure Magus has already embarassed himself so badly, one more ASV collapse will just be funny.
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Link he come to town to dominate all other characters and trample them down with his sword of more votes.

From: red sox 777 | #199
I still want to see Magus/Master Chief though. I figure Magus has already embarassed himself so badly, one more ASV collapse will just be funny.

i'd be surprised if Magus is ever leading in that match though. Honestly I'd think Crono/Chief would be a closer match then Chief/Magus
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