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Contest Stats and Discussion - Part 341

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therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 6:30:00 PM | message detail
And you guys are seriously overrating how much Sheik means for Zelda's strength. To the point where it's being used as an excuse to justify Zelda being strong while putting Peach down. Zelda is that strong because she's friggin' Zelda from The Legend of Zelda. I doubt that she'd be much weaker if she wasn't Sheik.

Peach may not have a "Sheik" role yet, but she's had plenty more exposure and is pretty much a Mario staple. Given how Nintendo has dominated recently, I see no reason why she wouldn't be near Yuna's or Rikku's level. Sure she probably would get SFF'd against another Nintendo character, but I can't see her indirectly being fodder. Pac-Man is my absolute floor for Peach.
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Draco1214 | Posted 8/3/2006 6:44:12 PM | message detail
To me, Peach lacks appeal. She's most remembered as "the girl Mario has to save," and lacks screentime in most of the Mario games (this is, of course, not counting the Mario spinoffs and SSBM). I really don't think the Nintendo fanbae would care about her, and thus, I don't think she'll have much strength to speak of, certainly not enough to be Yuna/Rikku level.

And as for Zelda, she has considerably more screentime and is more prominent in the Zelda games than Peach is in the Mario games, most notably Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. Both of those games gave her a much bigger role than your stereotypical damsel in distress cliche, and when those two games are top 10 on this site, trying to downplay their effects is ridiculous, IMO.
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Tequilla Gundam | Posted 8/3/2006 6:52:06 PM | message detail
Woah. Madden 07 outperforming Xenosaga III and Disgaea II in the poll.
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therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 6:54:31 PM | message detail
And as for Zelda, she has considerably more screentime and is more prominent in the Zelda games than Peach is in the Mario games, most notably Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. Both of those games gave her a much bigger role than your stereotypical damsel in distress cliche, and when those two games are top 10 on this site, trying to downplay their effects is ridiculous, IMO.

Uh, what? Zelda more screentime than Peach? SMB2? SMRPG? The Paper Mario games? I'm not even touching the other spinoffs. I think you're sadly mistaken. Exposure and prominence is not something that Zelda has an advantage over Peach over.

And seriously, most of this "nobody cares about Peach" thing is overrated. Aeris is nothing but FFVII's "damsel in distress", but look how strong she is. Of course, everyone will try to attribute that to "but she's the spoiler!", which I frankly find to be BS. I could also turn around and say "Who actually cares about Donkey Kong???" Sure he has some fans, but for the most part you can say that Nintendo fans don't really care for him either. He still is pretty decent as far as contest strength goes. The anti-Peach people have been pretty vocal, but there are indeed plenty of people who would give Peach a vote over the likes of a Chun-Li or someone. Nobody is saying she will be a powerhouse or anything...
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GrapefruitKing | Posted 8/3/2006 6:56:02 PM | message detail
Leon Kennedy vs. Master Chief tomorrow. Who wins and what's the percentage?

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Final Oracle Rank: 17th (Average: 44.20)
Z1mZum is a better Guru than me and Mel Gibson combined.
dethfdddddh | Posted 8/3/2006 7:11:44 PM | message detail
How is the spoiler BS? It defines her character.
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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 7:15:29 PM | message detail
The anti-Peach people have been pretty vocal, but there are indeed plenty of people who would give Peach a vote over the likes of a Chun-Li or someone. Nobody is saying she will be a powerhouse or anything...

Of course not, but I don't see her beating Yuna or Rikku either, neither of which is far above Chun-Li. Donkey Kong still has Donkey Kong Country, which was a big deal for the SNES, especially when it came out.

And comparing Peach and Zelda to Aeris is a bit ridiculous. Sure, it's not ALL due to the spoiler, but unlike those other two damsels in distress, Aeris does (believe it or not) have a likable personality, and she plays a central role in Final Fantasy VII. Even after the spoiler, she's still a focal point in the game.

I DO think Sheik does something for Zelda, as it gives her an appeal that she would otherwise lack (and which Peach lacks entirely, by comparison). It's not entirely just being the namesake of the series.

"But who likes Ganondorf?" you say? Believe it or not, the final fight of Ocarina of Time is held in the same light by casual Zelda fans as the final fight against Sephiroth is held by casual FFVII fans. I don't really understand why, but it is. Just the atmosphere, I guess.
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
GrapefruitKing | Posted 8/3/2006 7:21:29 PM | message detail
It's the fact that you could use a bottle to repel his attacks. How is that not badass?
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Final Oracle Rank: 17th (Average: 44.20)
Z1mZum is a better Guru than me and Mel Gibson combined.
RPGuy96 | Posted 8/3/2006 7:23:25 PM | message detail
And the Megaton Hammer to deliver all but the final blow. Who needs the Master Sword?
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Luigi, Magus, Kefka, Ike, Alucard, Phoenix, Ness
Lyn, Peach, Celes, Lenneth, Presea, Alex Roivas, Toadette, thanks to Guru Champ Z1mZum
Mac Arrowny | Posted 8/3/2006 7:24:58 PM | message detail
"But who likes Ganondorf?" you say? Believe it or not, the final fight of Ocarina of Time is held in the same light by casual Zelda fans as the final fight against Sephiroth is held by casual FFVII fans. I don't really understand why, but it is. Just the atmosphere, I guess.

Fighting against Ganon in OoT is infinitely cooler than any fight against Sephiroth. Fighting with Sephiroth in your party is pretty awe-inspiring, but the final battles against him aren't great.

Plenty of people like Ganon, and some (like Moltar and me) treat him as their favorite Nintendo character.
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gtonizuka49 | Posted 8/3/2006 7:26:24 PM | message detail
HAMMER TIME

*owns Ganon*
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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 7:30:00 PM | message detail
Plenty of people like Ganon, and some (like Moltar and me) treat him as their favorite Nintendo character.

I'm just saying, people have used the "Who really likes Ganondorf?" thing to justify themselves. It's not entirely the case, especially after The Wind Waker actually gave him some depth, or so I hear.
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 7:44:36 PM | message detail
Donkey Kong still has Donkey Kong Country, which was a big deal for the SNES, especially when it came out.

And Peach has all of the afformentioned, most are which are/were bigger than Donkey Kong Country. I don't see how you can bring that argument up for one and not for the other.

Besides, we all know that Donkey Kong Country is all about Diddy!!!
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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 7:56:32 PM | message detail
And Peach has all of the afformentioned, most are which are/were bigger than Donkey Kong Country

What? Mario 2 was a bigger deal than DKC? Ehh, Mario 2 is generally regarded as one of the least liked installments in the series. Sure, maybe Mario RPG was bigger (though she's not the main character or its namesake), but then there's nothing else Peach has that DK doesn't that would make a difference (Mario 3? Mario World? Not gonna do anything for her).
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 8:30:34 PM | message detail
What? Mario 2 was a bigger deal than DKC? Ehh, Mario 2 is generally regarded as one of the least liked installments in the series. Sure, maybe Mario RPG was bigger (though she's not the main character or its namesake), but then there's nothing else Peach has that DK doesn't that would make a difference (Mario 3? Mario World? Not gonna do anything for her).

Super Mario Bros. 2 was a big deal when it came out. Or do you not even remember? And just because it's not as liked as other Mario games doesn't mean that it isn't liked. That's pretty much irrelevant, especially considering how hugely popular other Mario games are. That's like saying FFVIII isn't that well liked while comparing it to FFVII. By itself, it's still a pretty popular game. And seeing how SMB2 was Peach's first real claim to fame, it is a big deal. Peach doesn't need namesake. She's about as well known as you can possibly be for a side character.

As for things that they share, Peach is arguably more popular than DK in all of the spin-off games. Again, I don't see how arguments for Donkey Kong wouldn't hold up for Peach. All the supposed "Peach dislike" is trumped by her series being much bigger than DK's. I really don't see how Peach wouldn't be a midcarder...
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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 8:33:24 PM | message detail
So...you're saying Peach beats Master Chief, or at least comes close?
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 8:35:31 PM | message detail
And it's not "dislike." It's "apathy." There's a big difference. Nobody really hates Peach, but it's not like she's a big deal in the grand scheme of things. That's why she's next to last in the Favorite Mario Character Poll (Note that this is not saying she will be weak because of that. It's saying that there's a reason why she's next to last).
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 8:44:00 PM | message detail
And it's not "dislike." It's "apathy." There's a big difference. Nobody really hates Peach, but it's not like she's a big deal in the grand scheme of things. That's why she's next to last in the Favorite Mario Character Poll (Note that this is not saying she will be weak because of that. It's saying that there's a reason why she's next to last).

But seriously, who the hell has Peach as a favorite Mario character? Especially against the likes of Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, etc. That poll is little indication on how Peach will perform because she just isn't the type of character to get favorite votes for the Mario series. It's a totally different story when you are seeing how she fares against someone outside of her fanbase or something. You have to read between the lines for that one. Do you really expect Peach to get votes in that thing?

And few people expected DK to be able to beat Master Chief until he went and almost did it. Master Chief really isn't that strong in these things. We've seen that he just has a dedicated fanbase that makes him look good in a loss. If he did beat Peach, it wouldn't be by much. There is just too much of the site that doesn't care for him as a character at all.
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therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 8:44:50 PM | message detail
Or as Karma Hunter would put it... Master Chief is a chump.
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Mac Arrowny | Posted 8/3/2006 8:47:32 PM | message detail
And let's not forget about the Nintendo boost. She probably gained at least a couple percent from that, considering that all the other Mario characters (DK included) did.
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Pity for the Gurus is treason to Z1mZum.
HaRRicH | Posted 8/3/2006 8:49:06 PM | message detail
And few people expected DK to be able to beat Master Chief until he went and almost did it.

It should be noted that this was likely more because of MC disappointing than DK impressing -- while there was MC/Crono, the rest of the four-pack...well, I'm not gettin' into this one again, especially while I'm drinkin' and about to celebrate my dad again.


With Princess's new game and her probably having comparable or better preference in every spin-off game when side-to-side with Donkey Kong (except SSB/M, if I had to guess...the biggest of them), I'd probably give DK the edge...but Mario's SFF'd DK hardcore before and her roles in SMB2 and SMRPG may trounce DK's roles in his games -- I wonder how big the DK games really are here...hard to tell, really.
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therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 8:53:44 PM | message detail
A direct matchup isn't the issue here. It's her indirect strength. Apparently, the main source of DK's strength is DKC, and Zelda's main source of strength is Sheik. That's pretty much the only thing that they have over Peach in comparison, and Peach has things going for her that they don't have. I personally don't see where the disparity comes in. But ah well, this will go on in circles until we actually see her in action.
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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 8:54:10 PM | message detail
That poll is little indication on how Peach will perform because she just isn't the type of character to get favorite votes for the Mario series. It's a totally different story when you are seeing how she fares against someone outside of her fanbase or something. You have to read between the lines for that one. Do you really expect Peach to get votes in that thing?

...I think that's what I just said. Peach is NOT a favorite. She never has been and she never will be. And I did say that this was no indication of how she will actually perform. I just said it shows she isn't a favorite.

In my opinion, I can't see Master Chief getting a big fight from Peach. Not to say he'd blow her out, but she wouldn't be in contention either.
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 8:55:30 PM | message detail
That's pretty much the only thing that they have over Peach in comparison, and Peach has things going for her that they don't have.

Things that I don't think are that big of a deal, personally. Of course, you feel differently and so do I. I just don't see many people out there who CARE about Peach.
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Squall, Tidus, The Prince of Persia, Nightmare, Sub-Zero, Captain Falcon, Raiden
Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
Master Moltar | Posted 8/3/2006 9:02:52 PM | message detail
I just don't see many people out there who CARE about Peach.

Sums up my feelings on the argument. Sure, she might not be a favorite Mario character, but I can't see her liked enough to be anything more than a lower-midcarder. She'll probably can beat some no-name that not many care about and win on name recognition, but against anyone with some strength, she'll crumble.
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ExThaNemesis | Posted 8/3/2006 9:05:48 PM | message detail
I see we're still on the Peach arguement, so I apparently haven't missed much in my time away!
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therealmnm | Posted 8/3/2006 9:07:07 PM | message detail
Things that I don't think are that big of a deal, personally. Of course, you feel differently and so do I. I just don't see many people out there who CARE about Peach.

And I can say the same thing for Donkey Kong and Zelda. I can also bring up points like DKC and Sheik helping them for Peach as well. I personally don't think Sheik is that big of a deal and feel that Zelda would be just as popular if she wasn't Sheik. Again, we both are small examples on opposite sides of the spectrum, but in the overall picture I think being well known long time Nintendo icons are the main reason for DK's and Zelda's repsective strengths, and I feel that Peach will follow along suit. Of course with the difference in strength being the popularity of each's series.
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Slowflake | Posted 8/3/2006 9:22:15 PM | message detail
Wow, I'm shocked there's no bracket yet. I thought for sure it would've gone up while I was at work. Man, I'd like to see this thing ASAP, just to see if I'm staying here or not.

I haven't read anything about Peach, but the one thing that scares me about her is how weak Luigi was prior to last year. I think it's safe to assume she was weaker, but if she didn't boost as much as he did (and that we'll never know, obviously), she will end up losing to opponents she should beat (Chun-Li, for one).

So yeah, Peach is an absolute wildcard. I hope it won't go to waste on pitting her against a bunch of losers, then face Samus/Tifa/Aeris/Zelda right after that.
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HaRRicH | Posted 8/3/2006 9:26:21 PM | message detail
I think being well known long time Nintendo icons are the main reason for DK's and Zelda's repsective strengths

I'd agree with DK, but not on Zelda...at least not nearly as much as DK, I should say.


As for the indirectly bit...I could see Peach giving MC a close match, sure. Maybe not as close as DK did, but I think a 52-48 outcome is perfectly believable. It could range, obviously, but I would buy 52-48.
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Z1mZum performed a hit and run on me in the Guru Contest.
It still hurts to be rear-ended like that.....
plasmabeam | Posted 8/3/2006 9:37:35 PM | message detail
Didn't really read into the latest posts, just skimmed, but here's my thoughts on Peach before I head to bed.

Remember that, before SSBM, Peach had nothing more than the damned hover ability in SMB2. That was her claim to fame for over a decade. She also doesn't have the name recognition of Zelda. People see the name "Zelda," and the Legend of Zelda automatically triggers in their heads. Peach has nothing like that going for her. And her DS game will do near to nothing for her.

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LeonhartForever | Posted 8/3/2006 9:42:01 PM | message detail
My problem with saying that Sheik did nothing for Zelda is that she's near equal with Ganondorf. We know Peach won't be anywhere near what Bowser is, so why is Zelda so close to him? She doesn't have any sort of advantage over Ganondorf that he doesn't share (and in nearly every other instance, the main villain is noticeably stronger than the leading lady).

Could be because the series is the Legend of Zelda, but it's not like Peach isn't a recognizable figure either. I'd say being Sheik has a lot to do with that.
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Presea, Chun-Li, Tifa, Celes, Quistis, Amy Rose, Mei Ling
Mac Arrowny | Posted 8/3/2006 9:48:11 PM | message detail
Remember that, before SSBM, Peach had nothing more than the damned hover ability in SMB2. That was her claim to fame for over a decade. She also doesn't have the name recognition of Zelda. People see the name "Zelda," and the Legend of Zelda automatically triggers in their heads. Peach has nothing like that going for her. And her DS game will do near to nothing for her.

I don't think that a Mario character is going to have any problems with name recognition.

Also: Peach has far more hentai than Zelda, so she's obviously more popular with the common man. >_>
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Pity for the Gurus is treason to Z1mZum.
Xuxon | Posted 8/3/2006 10:17:13 PM | message detail
Peach isn't really an icon. How many games have "Zelda" in the title? How many games have "Donkey Kong" in the title?

Now, how many games have Peach in the title? That's what I thought.

As for Zelda vs Peach, I'm not even sure Sheik helped Zelda that much. Even in Zelda's damsel in distress role, she at least appears in the games, and even helps out Link. Peach is an afterthought barely included in the ending, and that's about it. She doesn't show a hint of character as a damsel in distress. That's not a stigma that wears off because of something like "Super Princess Peach."

I'd take Ness over Peach. Terra. Zidane. I'd guess she beats Cecil only because Kirby is so overrated, and that Lloyd might have a shot. God, I'm agreeing with Lopen here.
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ChichiriMuyo | Posted 8/4/2006 12:47:36 AM | message detail
"God, I'm agreeing with Lopen here."

And probably throwing bracket point out the window, to boot. Sucks to be you.
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ChichiriMuyo | Posted 8/4/2006 12:48:50 AM | message detail
*points, multiple. If you think she can just barely tackle Cecil AND that Kirby is overrated you're ****ed.
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Z1mzum kicked my ass in the guru contest, so now I have to kiss his ass.
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jonthomson | Posted 8/4/2006 4:35:36 AM | message detail
I'd have trouble putting Ness over Peach, but I take DK over Peach any day of the week. She'd get destroyed by anyone as strong as Zelda.
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ccbfan | Posted 8/4/2006 5:09:11 AM | message detail
People are drastically underestimating the amount sheik increased Zelda.

Remember Sheik is probably the most popular Smash character. That means a lot considering the trends we see with how popular smash characters get huge boost (Samus, Kirby) while unpopular ones get a minimal boost (DK, Ness). (Bowser and Ganondolf's strength comes liitle from smash but a lot more from WW and PM).

This also means peach is gonna get a substancial boost from it since she's a top 5 character. While I don't think she'll even come close to beating Zelda, I think she definitely beats DK.

She'll probably beat Master Chief too aka the most overrated character among the stat gurus because of his "impressive" loses against top tier characters.
jonthomson | Posted 8/4/2006 5:30:16 AM | message detail
And for the record, Luigi > Peach > Toad > Mario in SMB2
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Luis_Sera89 | Posted 8/4/2006 5:31:20 AM | message detail
I think Peach deserves more credit than she's generally getting in this topic. I'd consider her a good midcarder. I wouldn't take her over Yoshi or Luigi, but definetely over DK. As for Chun-Li, I'd probably take Peach again, and I'd give some serious thought over any potential meetings with Rikku and Yuna, but might end up giving Nintendo the benefit of the doubt.
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Team Rocket Elite | Posted 8/4/2006 6:59:51 AM | message detail
Remember Sheik is probably the most popular Smash character.

Not even close. Being a high tier character is certainly an advantage, but it doesn't make you the most popular character. Tiers really only matter for a small group of people.

How well do you think Marth and Roy would do?
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voltch | Posted 8/4/2006 7:06:05 AM | message detail
by the way how is it that peach who is one of the most famous ninendo characters due to having to save her every game,never entered the main bracket while characters like felix/isaac and goemon have?
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MarioSuperstar | Posted 8/4/2006 7:07:21 AM | message detail
I don't see a single reason to take Peach over Donkey Kong, because I don't know a single voter who would like Peach more than one of Nintendo's most classic characters. I think Peach fumbles against her own fanbase, really.
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“Back in my day we used to actually play our videogames instead of watching them.” - Vivi0198 | Z1mZum owned me
Tatsumaki Senpuu | Posted 8/4/2006 7:14:35 AM | message detail
Wow. Peach over Donkey Kong now? She keeps getting more and more overrated as time goes on. Tch.

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Slowflake | Posted 8/4/2006 7:17:16 AM | message detail
Let them do what they want, HM. Being the one to collect the points for once would be good for your indie cred, huh?
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i thought people on gamefaqs had good taste in games i guess i was wrong -EstUmbra
Oooh... Yeah... I need... condom... sixty nine!! -IENJOYHAM
Phediuk | Posted 8/4/2006 7:29:53 AM | message detail
WTF? Why does everyone think that Shiek provides all of Zelda's strength all of the sudden?

Did we suddenly forget that her series is named "The Legend of ZELDA"? And that that series just won the title of Best. Series. Ever.? Sometimes you people confuse me. A lot.
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Xuxon | Posted 8/4/2006 7:53:20 AM | message detail
My opinion may change on exactly how weak Peach is, but no way do I ever think about Peach > DK. No way do I take her over Chun-Li, either, but I could at least see how she has a chance at her.
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MarioSuperstar | Posted 8/4/2006 7:58:19 AM | message detail
I'm confused for the fact that you'd take her over Donkey Kong easily but you have to think about Chun-Li. come on, she barely got more votes than Waluigi.. you think DK wouldn't do decent in that poll?
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“Back in my day we used to actually play our videogames instead of watching them.” - Vivi0198 | Z1mZum owned me
UltimaterializerX | Posted 8/4/2006 8:02:14 AM | message detail
Not even close. Being a high tier character is certainly an advantage, but it doesn't make you the most popular character. Tiers really only matter for a small group of people.

That's a lie and a half. Shiek is the most used character in the game due to how easy it is to get good with her, which is why the self-experts in the MBR dropped her down a tier in the first place. Everyone knows everything about Shiek, so naturally she is now easy to fight against.

Gotta love the MBR. Those people make self-expert stats topic elitism look like Sesame Street. The most important days in any of their lives is whenever they arbitrarily decide that the tiers need to be redone.

~*ST*~
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UltimaterializerX | Posted 8/4/2006 8:02:41 AM | message detail
Oh and Peach over DK is madness, I would think.

~*ST*~
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Xuxon | Posted 8/4/2006 8:03:37 AM | message detail
Er, what I meant was, I would never even consider her to beat Donkey Kong.
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