Though this may be the biggest shift we've ever had (well, besides from 2k2 to 2k3) from year to year, a shift over the course of three (or probably even two) years is bigger...

And I see Starion's point. Really, Crono's strength in a few years just depends on which way popularity in gaming goes.

I just wonder how strong Crono would be if he actually spoke. ...I'd venture a guess that he'd be top three.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?

Ganon isn't cracking the elites without a radical change in his role. There's a reason there is only one villain is in the N9 and there's a reason why that villain is Sephiroth. Unless his role changes he's not being the N9, and unless DoC isn't out by then I wouldn't dare take him over Vincent.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

I just wonder how strong Crono would be if he actually spoke. ...I'd venture a guess that he'd be top three.

I think being a mute works as part of his appeal. Saying nothing makes a character harder to hate, which could potentially give him more fans then he'd have if he spoke.
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"The idiots on gamefaqs are easy to find because they always quote themselves" - dragoontheguy

Well, the reason Sephiroth is in the N9 is that he's the villain in FF7. Granted, he fits the part a little better and is a bit more likable than Ganondorf is, but if the Zelda series takes another boost next year, I can't see Ganondorf not benefitting. Still couldn't see him in the N9, though.

And that's true, Zelda could be strong as well. She probably stands more to gain, if Ganon just ends up being the stereotypical King of Evil again.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?

I don't think Crono is hurt by being a mute. it sure isn't hurting Link, and it's difficult to hate someone who never says anything stupid.
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The mute thing can appeal to people, yeah, but not as much to RPG fans... I'm not saying give the guy a vibrant personality, it'd be easy to have him speak but still be very much of an everyman.

I dunno. I just vote against the guy in many matches because I like the other character's personality better, and I think that's likely more of the RPG fan's mentality.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?

Why cant Ganondorf break into the Noble Nine? Im not so sure he wouldnt have beaten Snake this year. He is right there and you cant tell me that TP wouldnt push him in the right direction especially since Mega Man seems to be on a downward trend over the years.

But like I said I dont know if Zelda, especially if she has her biggest role yet, wont leapfrog him.
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Leon's Quest For Ultimate Glory:
1. Gordon Freeman; 2. Mega Man

"Well, the reason Sephiroth is in the N9 is that he's the villain in FF7."

Wrong. Just being in FF7 isn't what does it, it's also how prominent he is and how cool he comes off to the general public. His relationship with Cloud, his design, his mysteriousness, his atitude... he has things going for him most villains don't, he has appeal that almost no other villain has. Being in FF7 sure does do a lot, but Ganon is in Zelda and he's not as close to Link as Seph is to Cloud. The reason is apparent, Sephiroth is far and away more appealing as a character.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

Wrong. Just being in FF7 isn't what does it, it's also how prominent he is and how cool he comes off to the general public. His relationship with Cloud, his design, his mysteriousness, his atitude... he has things going for him most villains don't, he has appeal that almost no other villain has. Being in FF7 sure does do a lot, but Ganon is in Zelda and he's not as close to Link as Seph is to Cloud. The reason is apparent, Sephiroth is far and away more appealing as a character.

you could say the same thing about Kuja.
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From: Tatsumaki Senpuu | Posted: 9/20/2005 7:41:54 AM | Message Detail
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There's simply no way, at all, that Link will continue to increase from now until the after school vote is ended. How one can believe that, I don't know. But hell, there were people expecting Link to just breeze through this match even easier than last year, so perhaps it isn't too surprising.

I've been on the road for 7+ hours waiting to get back and see how right you were. Cloud had a hell of a day vote huh? Wait, did Link increase his lead from the morning until the afterschool vote? Why yes! I'm not usually one to put someone on blast, but you and Karma Hunter were talking to me like I was crazy...

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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

I'd never put Kuja in the same league with Sephiroth based on those things. If Kuja were in FF7 instead of Sephiroth he wouldn't be #3 of all-time, and he might not even be an elite.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

Why cant Ganondorf break into the Noble Nine? Im not so sure he wouldnt have beaten Snake this year. He is right there and you cant tell me that TP wouldnt push him in the right direction especially since Mega Man seems to be on a downward trend over the years.

But like I said I dont know if Zelda, especially if she has her biggest role yet, wont leapfrog him.

You're gonna keep Snake in, boot MM and Sonic and tell me Ganon is gonna make N9 when he'll probably face a superior Nintendo character that would SFF him before he reaches the bottom of the 9. Even in 07 that is a bit of a reach though TP could change that.
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18 winning seasons, 2 20 strikeout games, #2 all-time in strikeouts, 7 Cy Youngs, arguably the best pitcher ever: Roger Clemens

Okay first off, the reason I keep Snake in is because of Metal Gear Solid 4. I am also not sure that Sonic will get his next generation game in time. Mega Man has been on the decline throughout the contest years. You must remember that Nintendo attempted to start to give 'Dorf character in The Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess is suppose to be by far the most character and story based of any of the Zelda game. Thus, I expect much more development of Ganon's character.

So yes, because I assume that 'Dorf is basically equal to Snake at this point and not all that far behind Sonic and Megaman. (I predict him to lose around 52.5-47.5 right now) That I can believe with Mega Man becoming less and less a factor in the gaming world and 'Dorf getting his biggest title ever that Ganondorf can pass Mega Man and maybe Sonic as well.
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Leon's Quest For Ultimate Glory:
1. Gordon Freeman; 2. Mega Man

well, the point is that Kuja has the same things you mentioned in regards to Sephiroth but is among the worst characters we've seen because he's not in ff7. take Seph out of ff7 and put him in ff9 and you've got a mid-tier character. same with Vincent, or Tifa, or Cloud. hell, Yuri and Cloud are not terribly different, but the popularity of their games are millions apart, literally.

RPG villains are more liked than other villains because they get more development and backstory than a normal villain does. there isn't another RPG villain near Sephiroth because there isn't another RPG near ff7 besides CT, and CT doesn't have a real villain. the closest thing is Magus. nor does ff10. heck, Kefka looks to be the strongest character in ff6. if we had another ultra-popular RPG with a real villain, I'd expect them to do quite well.
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Right now the match is on a pace for 120,000 votes.
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Leon's Quest For Ultimate Glory:
1. Gordon Freeman; 2. Mega Man

Update for 14:25 is missing.

Link is brilliant here. ;)

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Warden: Talk! What is SeeD all about!?
Squall: ...Flower.

"well, the point is that Kuja has the same things you mentioned in regards to Sephiroth but is among the worst characters we've seen because he's not in ff7."

False. Kuja is in no way on the same level as Sephiroth. Kuja does not have anywhere near the level of appeal as Sephiroth, in fact, and even if the two switched places Kuja couldn't begin to do what Sephiroth has done and Sephiroth would still be near elite. Sephiroth has the level of appeal to draw people to the game he's in, his level of appeal is so high that he isn't even SFF'd by Cloud while Ganon completely falls apart against Link. If Sephiroth were in another game, more people would play that game.

"hell, Yuri and Cloud are not terribly different"

Have you ever played FF7? They have tortured pasts and psychotic episodes, outside of that they aren't even remotely the same.

"RPG villains are more liked than other villains because they get more development and backstory than a normal villain does."

Really? Is that why the next strongest RPG villains are Kefka (assuming you don't count Magus, which I don't), who would be tripled by Sephiroth, and Diablo who has no character development (and would also be tripled by Sephiroth, in all liklihood)? From there we go to Ansem and Lavos, neither of which can crack the fodder line. I'm not exactly sure if you pay attention to what's going on around you, but there are only 4 RPG characters that can even be considered villains that are above the fodder line, so your argument is, well, crap. RPG villains need to have their own appeal to rank well, and only one RPG villain has the appeal AND noteriety to rank among the elites.

"and CT doesn't have a real villain."

Right, 'cause Lavos doesn't exist. Oh wait, he does and he's below the fodder line.

"nor does ff10"

Sin (less than 16% on Link, btw) is set up as the villain from the very first scene! Have you even played any of these games? Seriously, Sin's role is not ambiguous, and just because you are led to feel sympathy for the person inside of sin doesn't mean a damn. Hell, you're led to feel as much for Ganon in WW, he's still the villain. Just because they put a twist on the role doesn't mean the role has changed.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

If Bowser can do that while only having small-ish roles in the new games he's in and Vincent is already at that level without a new game how much do you really think it'll take?

Well, I plan on going back to look to see just if there was a Nintendo boost. I know you think there wasn't for everyone, but Bowser, despite what ever small roles he has, is still Bowser. If there was a Nintendo boost, or even a Mario series boost, Bowser would almost definitely benefit.

As for Vincent...he still only barely beat Squall, and I would never take him over Bowser or Ganondorf.

Interesting point: Even though Ganondorf did better on Seph in the spring, it seems that everyone here is still really hesitant to take him over Snake. Bowser came close, and we've had a direct opponent matchup to show that Ganon is stronger than Bowser. It might not have been that much, but then again, Snake didn't beat Bowser by that much either. Even if the Noble Nine survived in all of their matchups, it's possible a Ganon/Snake match would have ruined it.

One more thing for Vincent. Even if there doesn't look like there was sff, there really could have been. After all, it's still Square, so the possibility is definitely there. However, I don't think it necessarily had to go to Crono....but sff in a same company matchup is always a possibility.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~ Old Klingon Proverb

"we've had a direct opponent matchup to show that Ganon is stronger than Bowser."

The validity of which is questionable.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

Lavos and Sin are big blobs with no personality whatsoever. when I say they're not villains, I mean in the human sense. there's nothing appealing about them whatsoever.

of course I've played ff7. (at this point, who hasn't?) the point with Cloud and Yuri is that their personalities appeal to the same demographic. put Cloud in SH and he's fodder.

I find it hard to believe that Seph would be near-elite if he was in ff9. I'm assuming by that, you mean 35%ish on BL. that's way above anyone else that's in ff9, and I don't think Seph could pull that off. not even Cloud could.
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"the point with Cloud and Yuri is that their personalities appeal to the same demographic."

I disagree.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

I love this. Give em hell, Hero of Time.
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SC2K5 Guru Contest: Where _______ kicked my ass.

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

"I'm assuming by that, you mean 35%ish on BL."

Anything above 30-31% is near elite. And yes, I do mean Seph would be quite high. Even as a villain his appeal is enough that he'd attract more people to the game just by being in it.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

The validity of which is questionable.

how so?
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~ Old Klingon Proverb

*high fives Ulti*

53%!

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Warden: Talk! What is SeeD all about!?
Squall: ...Flower.

Well, of course Cloud wouldn't be quite the contender if he were in another game, especially one with sales as abysmal as Shadow Hearts. That much is obvious, but he DOES have appeal that makes him a massive favorite other than merely being in the game he's in. There are reasons why Cloud and Sephiroth are leagues ahead of their other FFVII mates.
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"Stay there for me, trapped in memories."
"I...I won't become a memory."

Lavos and Sin are big blobs with no personality whatsoever. when I say they're not villains, I mean in the human sense. there's nothing appealing about them whatsoever.

Sin has plenty of underlying personality, it jsut isn't thrown in your face.

Lavos, however, you are correct on.

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Heroic Mario is sexually stimulated by being wrong.- Digital Pad

I, among many others, feel like Ganon outdid himself just a smidge in the match. His match with Auron does not inspire confidence, really. Even if he didn't, he's barely ahead of Bowser and it's unlikely to be enough to beat Snake.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

Say Bormun, do you have Link > Seph final? and are you eligible? =p
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RagingNiak - 12th on the leaderboard.
189/200. Tomorrow: Sephiroth over Mario.

"There are reasons why Cloud and Sephiroth are leagues ahead of their other FFVII mates."

Whoa careful there, you wouldn't want to break anybodies brains with logic, now would ya?
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

I think we can all agree that Vinny V is the 3rd strongest FFVII character by a fair margin, yes? And the margin will be even greater after Dirge of Cerberus
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RagingNiak - 12th on the leaderboard.
189/200. Tomorrow: Sephiroth over Mario.

That's hard to say, he's awfully close to Aeris, really. After DoC, though, yeah... he should be a force.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

of course they have appeal, I'd be stupid to argue otherwise. so do other characters from smaller games, though, and they don't have nearly the support that ff7 characters do. Cloud and Seph's popularity comes from being the most popular RPG on the site, just like Link's popularity comes from being the most popular Nintendo title on the site.
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I hate to say it as an FF7 fan, but what we're seeing here suggests something that Pro-Link fans were saying at the time of the 2003 contest. The match pic (featuring LoZ:WW) hurt Link. I think that Links win here, combined with last year and his win in 2002, are just too much to overcome based purely on KH. Don't get me wrong, as I DO think that KH's presence was felt during that match. But I think the WW image may have hurt Link much more than anyone suspected. You have to remember, at that point, WW had just been released recently, and a lot of LoZ fans were still feeling betrayed by the kiddy image of that game after expecting something OOT-ish only on the GC. However popular WW grew later, and however solid its core gameplay was, WW Link still loses out in a popularity contest. Since then, we've had fan-created match pics, and as long as that's true, I think Link will be champ. Maybe if AC had come out in the US things would have been different.
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"Yeah keep making jokes, that'll win the war."-Griff
[Placeholder for sig bet with JusticeGuy begun 1/8/05]

Wow, just wow.

I left for work thinking this morning Cloud was going to build on his league with the morning and early afternoon vote.

I was wrong, bigtime. This got ugly :P
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Vote every day in the NCAA Character Battle 2005 contest!

Again, I disagree. If their strength was merely from being in FF7 they wouldn't do that well. We've seen 3 other FF7 characters and they are all in the same general area (and have a great deal of appeal of their own). They are propelled by the strength of their game, not carried by it, and if you added a character like Yuri to FF7 he wouldn't achieve the level of Cloud and Seph (hell, I'd take Vincent, Aeris, and Tifa all to smash him). Other games have characters with appeal, sure, but I can't name a single RPG where the characters are as appealing as FF7's cast. FF7 isn't even my favorite RPG, and yet still 3 of the characters in the game rank in my top 10 favorites of all time. There's massive appeal there, far beyond any other game you could name, and the voters agree with me.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

what is your favourite RPG, out of curiosity?

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Lufia 2. Some others come close, in a sense, but there's just soemthing about Lufia 2 that puts it ahead of the competition.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

I meant lead, BTW :) Cloud did have a slim lead, about 150, but I really thought he was going to build on it.
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Vote every day in the NCAA Character Battle 2005 contest!

of course they have appeal, I'd be stupid to argue otherwise. so do other characters from smaller games, though, and they don't have nearly the support that ff7 characters do. Cloud and Seph's popularity comes from being the most popular RPG on the site, just like Link's popularity comes from being the most popular Nintendo title on the site.

But that's just it. I don't think it's that FF7's popularity give Cloud and Seph their appeal. I think Cloud and Seph's appeal, as characters, is what made FFVII so popular.

Link's popularity derives from having popular games, but their popular because they are (with a few exceptions) all GREAT games. And Link is a pretty appealing hero when all is said and done. Though really I think that OOC had more to do with that than anything else. There was way more development in that game than there was in the previous Link games. Personally, I hope in this next installment that since they've told us it'll be the last of its kind, they finally round off the story.
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"Yeah keep making jokes, that'll win the war."-Griff
[Placeholder for sig bet with JusticeGuy begun 1/8/05]

"I don't think it's that FF7's popularity give Cloud and Seph their appeal. I think Cloud and Seph's appeal, as characters, is what made FFVII so popular."

Exactly.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

I still believe Vincent hit Crono with a little bit of rSFF. FFVII is the most popular game on this site and the holy grail of all Square titles. Cloud beat Squall with SFF, Aeris obliterated Sora with a SFF mallet, and from what I last heard, most people believe that Sephiroth SFF'D Auron and Vivi as well. It's clear the FFVII characters all have very prominent positions in the Square pecking order, so based on this, it makes sense to assume that a FFVII side character could have taken a bit of juice away from an old Square hero.
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SC2K5 Guru Contest: Where _______ kicked my ass.

Even if that's the case, it's minor. A % or two, really, and it doesn't keep him away from being among the top 10 pre-adjustment and pre-ToC. Maybe Kirby would beat him, maybe Ganon, but who else below him in even the unadjusted stats would you take over Vincent (barring Samus)? It can't be a long list.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

so Link is popular because they're great games, but FF7 is popular because of Cloud and Seph? meh, I guess it's debatable since RPGs are story-driven, but I personally believe Cloud and Seph are popular because of FF7.
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I'm not even sure Ganon will be able to take him after DoC comes out.
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"Yeah keep making jokes, that'll win the war."-Griff
[Placeholder for sig bet with JusticeGuy begun 1/8/05]

You're wrong, then.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

That was to transiece, not Zu Long, obv.
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I once made a sig bet with TRE that Ganon wasn't actually over 31 on BL. The jury's still out on the pigman, but props to TRE 'cause I'm a believer again.

If it was FFVII that makes them popular, they wouldn't be heads and shoulders above the rest of the cast.
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"A strong man doesn't need to read the future. He makes his own."
"Building the future and keeping the past alive are the same thing."

Even if that's the case, it's minor. A % or two, really, and it doesn't keep him away from being among the top 10 pre-adjustment and pre-ToC.

Definitely. I think it's crystal clear that Vincent has the goods; I just believe that if people want to make the case for him possibly overperforming on Crono, rSFF is a more sound case than the Advent Children leakage.
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SC2K5 Guru Contest: Where _______ kicked my ass.