Are people STILL saying Bowser has no chance against Snake?
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Are people STILL saying Bowser has no chance against Snake?

Nah, just us ... I mean, them stupid Snake fanboys.

>_>
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The Power is Yours.

Well, Bowser effictively has NO chances against Solid Snake...
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Last round, I flat-out told Kerrigan supporters that they were delusional. I was proven right.

And yet these same people now go merrily about their way in doubting Vincent again. It's unbelievable.

They even try to act as if their faith in Kerrigan wasn't ridiculous to begin with.

The only arrogance here is displayed by those people who were proven wrong before, and yet insist on clinging to their mis-guided point of view.

... I don't see what the big deal is. They are suggesting the possibility, however unlikely, that Vincent might not absolutely dominant Dante or may even lose. Are they wrong? It certainly seems to be likely, but if they can make an argument to the contrary, why not spend the time refuting the argument and not needlessly attacking the person?

The people in this topic who argue often have a nasty habit of remembering every nearly single debate they got into, every person who disagreed with them, even on the most inconsequential arguments, and then throwing it back into their faces when their “opponents” gets that match wrong. On the other hand, they proceed to conveniently "forget" when they got a match wrong, or make numerous posts that the current result was completely obvious, despite them making numerous posts arguing to the contrary.

So you were proven right with Kerrigan vs. Vincent. Wonderful. Congratulations. I’d be surprised if you of all people got that match wrong. And I’d be surprised if the vast, vast majority of the people in this topic got Kerrigan vs. Vincent wrong. I recall seeing people who wanted Kerrigan vs. Vincent to do well, or even suggesting that it might be close, but I can only think of 1 person of the top of my head that honestly expected Kerrigan to win. You act as though you and Chichiri were all alone against the rest of the topic, defending Vincent. That may be the case now, but it certainly wasn’t then. I doubt most of the people arguing against you about Kerrigan’s chances earnestly believed that she had a shot. Or at least I hope that they didn’t believe that.

You seem to misunderstand something - I do doubt Vincent. But not the way you imply that I do - delusionally. I think he is clearly very strong, perhaps top 15, maybe even top 10 material. But I'm not convinced that he'll do much better than 60 - 62% on Dante at best. If he does do better, fine, wonderful I was wrong. That doesn't mean that I was completely delusional. That isn't misguided, it is just me having a healthy skepticism for the results.

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Mumei summed up my thoughts exactly. great post.
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I hope Vincent gets 55% or less on Dante...
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

Odd, I got ye old site down for maintenance message then when I come back it says I have a Notificaiton, which doesn't appear to exist since I clicked on it and there was nothing and now it's gone. Oh, and I have no moderations.

Anyway, Vincent is winning tomorrow, that's all there is to it. People who are calling us dellusional for saying that have another thing coming, and people who call me or anyone else arrogant for "suggesting the possibility" that Vincent is on the level of Crono are going to feel what it's like to actually deal with an arrogant *******. I can't help it, but when someone acts completely ridiculous I feel inclined to point it out.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

I want Kerrigan to rank under Guybrush just for the chuckles.

From: Mumei | Posted: 8/29/2005 5:45:00 PM | Message Detail | #354
I don't see what the big deal is. They are suggesting the possibility, however unlikely, that Vincent might not absolutely dominant Dante or may even lose. Are they wrong? It certainly seems to be likely, but if they can make an argument to the contrary, why not spend the time refuting the argument and not needlessly attacking the person?

I am obviously attacking the logic.

Not having absolute faith in Vincent is good. It is the doubting of Vincent beyond all evidence to the contrary, and the attacking of those with the informed stance, that is annoying and unwelcome.

People are ignoring the past, and thus dooming themselves to repeat. This is rather easy to see.


The people in this topic who argue often have a nasty habit of remembering every nearly single debate they got into, every person who disagreed with them, even on the most inconsequential arguments, and then throwing it back into their faces when their “opponents” gets that match wrong. On the other hand, they proceed to conveniently "forget" when they got a match wrong, or make numerous posts that the current result was completely obvious, despite them making numerous posts arguing to the contrary.

I am absolutely not and have never been a member of that group. I despise that myself. To be honest, this isn't really something I should have to point out.


So you were proven right with Kerrigan vs. Vincent. Wonderful. Congratulations.

Gee...arrogant condescension much? That is hardly the point, and you should know that.


You act as though you and Chichiri were all alone against the rest of the topic, defending Vincent.

What? You are going more and more off course.
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Ive only been stating that Dante has more of a shot at Vincent than people give him credit for. After seeing new characters like Luigi bomb horribly, I don't exactly have much faith in Vincent. If Vincent does extremely well against Dante, then I'll believe his strength and admit I was wrong. I surely will not rub it in if Dante wins.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

That's my point - both sides are acting completely ridiculous and one side is probably overestimating a bit, while the other side is underestimating him a bit.

I think most people will concede the possibility that Vincent is as strong as Crono, but they'll (as will I) continue to have their doubts about it. And I don't see how you can blame them for having doubts that a brand-new character is actually as strong as Crono.

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Well said, Mumei. Pity you'll likely be attacked for that.
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

I can't believe that some people are convinced that vincent is actually strong enough to make a close match with crono. Haven't you people learned anything about gaging a character's strength off of one match, especially when it's against a new character? Wouldn't it be at least a bit more reasonable to actually wait for vincent to take on somebody who's strength we actually know a damned thing about before assuming that he's that huge of a powerhouse?
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Kerrigan could be weaker than Tanner for all we know and Vincent could be as strong as Ryo Hazuki.

I am obviously attacking the logic.

Not having absolute faith in Vincent is good. It is the doubting of Vincent beyond all evidence to the contrary, and the attacking of those with the informed stance, that is annoying and unwelcome.

People are ignoring the past, and thus dooming themselves to repeat. This is rather easy to see.

Thus making it necessary to throw around the word "delusional"? Let's be honest here - the only person who deserves the label from now until the end of time is Heroic Mario.

Some of the people you are arguing against are quite informed - they just came to a different, perhaps wrong, opinion on what is going to happen. As much as I dislike it, is it possible that Kerrigan is far weaker than anyone expected, coming from an ensemble cast not often played for its single-player? I don't see why it wouldn't be. But I don't think that's the case, either.

I am absolutely not and have never been a member of that group. I despise that myself. To be honest, this isn't really something I should have to point out.

I don't exactly keep track of who does it and who doesn't do it; just commenting on the overall trend of the topic, so my apologies to you. I wasn't sure if you were one of the people, which is why I talked in more general terms about the subject.

Gee...arrogant condescension much? That is hardly the point, and you should know that.

No, not arrogant condescension. I was saying that you being proven correct on Vincent vs. Kerrigan really doesn't matter that much when it comes to this argument. You were one of the few who accurately gauged just how weak she would be, but it isn't as though everyone else got the match wrong, so why does that matter? I wasn't trying to be patronizing, regardless of how that appeared.

As a matter of interest, what is everyone expecting for Vincent vs. Dante? I'm expecting at least 57% for Vincent, maybe as high as 62%, myself.

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Let's not go crazy now.
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

No one is "convinced" of anything at this point. But you can't fault them. In all honesty, I doubt that anyone is serious about expecting Vincent to break 47 on Crono.
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The Power is Yours.

Well said, Mumei. Pity you'll likely be attacked for that.

They love me too much. <3

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Responding to Wily there.
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

I've got about 56% for Vincent. I'm really not sure, as I don't trust that Kerrigan match result at all since we have no idea how strong she is.
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As a matter of interest, what is everyone expecting for Vincent vs. Dante? I'm expecting at least 57% for Vincent, maybe as high as 62%, myself.

I'm expecting Dante to win with less than 51%.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

They love me too much. <3

Says who? *stabs*
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The Power is Yours.

;_;

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

I actually don't see how Vincent could lose that match. I'd find it very hard to believe that Dante Sparda from Devil May Cry will beat Vincent Valentine, who is from the most popular game on this site. If I had no idea what has happened in any contest before, I would still think the same thing.

I mean, everything that Dante has going for him, Vincent has the exact same thing... and he is from a much bigger game! As we saw with so called Kerrigan fans on Starcraft boards being bigger Vincent Valentine fans, I'm sure there are a number of Dante fans that are bigger Vincent fans.

I'm not knocking anyone that has Dante winning, but I would be rather surprised if he even keeps the match close, let alone actually win. That's just my opinion on the matter... Dante hasn't done anything in these contests that has impressed me.
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

I'm going with Vincent 60%+
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As for the match...

One of three scenarios.

Scenario A: Dante wins with <53%.

Scenario B: Vincent wins with <55%.

Scenario C: Vincent wins with 65%+.
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The Power is Yours.

I think what's also amusing here is that we're completely overlooking the match IN BETWEEN Vincent/Dante and Vincent/Crono, that one being Vincent/Squall...
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Old Klingon Proverb

It is unlikely Dante will win, but I'm basing that off Vincent being from FFVII rather than Kerrigan's "strength". I say... 59% for Vincent. Could be up to 66%.
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

As we saw with so called Kerrigan fans on Starcraft boards being bigger Vincent Valentine fans, I'm sure there are a number of Dante fans that are bigger Vincent fans.

Or maybe kerrigan is just really weak? Nah, couldn't be....

Dante is unlikely to win, but vincent is being hyped to ridiculous proportions right now. How could some people possibly consider him a threat to crono before he's even faced one person that we know anything about in terms of strength? That's my only point.
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Personally I think that Squall will beat Vincent. That's just me being delusional though >_>
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The Power is Yours.

I think what's also amusing here is that we're completely overlooking the match IN BETWEEN Vincent/Dante and Vincent/Crono, that one being Vincent/Squall...

People are going to use cloud vs. squall to justify calling you insane for even mentioning that match, even though squall has every chance of winning at this point.
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From: dragoontheguy | Posted: 8/29/2005 11:09:39 PM | Message Detail
Dante is unlikely to win, but vincent is being hyped to ridiculous proportions right now. How could some people possibly consider him a threat to crono before he's even faced one person that we know anything about in terms of strength? That's my only point.

Destroying someone like Vincent did Kerrigan is very impressive, not only that, he's from the most popular game on the site. I think that's enough to consider the possibility.
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... No point in arguing that until you see how Vincent does against Dante. <.<

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Destroying someone like Vincent did Kerrigan is very impressive

Kerrigan's strength is unknown. She could be on the level of Guybrush for all we know.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

Vincent could be part of the choke family through, he destroys fodder but chokes in round 2 and 3.

From: FastFalcon05 | Posted: 8/29/2005 11:07:27 PM | Message Detail
I think what's also amusing here is that we're completely overlooking the match IN BETWEEN Vincent/Dante and Vincent/Crono, that one being Vincent/Squall...

It's going to be a SFF match, so, it just goes down to how you think the SFF will go, the people your post refers to assume Vincent will win the SFF.
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Destroying someone like Vincent did Kerrigan is very impressive

I may be wrong, but I think that in that match it was FF7 that destroyed Kerrigan, not Vincent.
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Currently playing: Killer7 [GC] + Yoshi Touch & Go [DS]

Destroying someone like Vincent did Kerrigan is very impressive, not only that, he's from the most popular game on the site. I think that's enough to consider the possibility.

Games =/= characters.

We have no idea how strong vincent is at this point. I'd probably peg him a bit above aeris myself, but considering a serious threat to crono before we've seen how strong he actually is seems kind of foolish.
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well, getting 80% is impressive no matter who it's against. you need to have a lot of strength to do that, unless you're going against Tanner.

still, I was more impressed by Dante's 70% on Terra. considering all the Terra > Kefka arguments, that was shocking.
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Thus making it necessary to throw around the word "delusional"?

Are you trying to say that people who thought Kerrigan could challenge Vincent weren't delusional? Because they were clearly delusional before the fact, and after the fact...well, you know.

Same thing with anyone who thinks Dante can actually beat Vincent.


Some of the people you are arguing against are quite informed

Hmm. Doubtful.


I was saying that you being proven correct on Vincent vs. Kerrigan really doesn't matter that much when it comes to this argument. You were one of the few who accurately gauged just how weak she would be, but it isn't as though everyone else got the match wrong, so why does that matter?

Because history is repeating itself. This should be clear.


As a matter of interest, what is everyone expecting for Vincent vs. Dante? I'm expecting at least 57% for Vincent, maybe as high as 62%, myself.

From 55%-67%.

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It's not often we see destruction like that. Heck, the counterpoint to that argument was Luigi vs Ratchet and look what Luigi did to KOS-MOS this year. If you think absolutely crushing your opponent isn't something to fear and respect then you are probably grasping for straws every time you get into an argument on the subject. There's more than enough evidence to at least consider the possibility, and we're being fed derisive comments because we have. It's out and out ridiculous to defend that side of the argument, even if you don't like the other side all that much.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Don't forget Dante also got 80% againt Ratchet.

Or maybe kerrigan is just really weak? Nah, couldn't be....

I didn't say a word about how strong Kerrigan is, mind you. I was stating the fact that some of Kerrigan's fans were bigger Vincent fans.

How could some people possibly consider him a threat to crono before he's even faced one person that we know anything about in terms of strength? That's my only point.

You don't need to see contest strength to speculate how strong a character will be. Just because this is Vincent's first year, it doesn't mean that he can't be a powerhouse. In 2k2, would it have been delusional for Sephiroth to be in the Final Four? There's no way in hell I would have believed Sephiroth would be one of the top 3 characters on this site... yet it happened. If Vincent did give Crono a decent match, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Heck, the counterpoint to that argument was Luigi vs Ratchet and look what Luigi did to KOS-MOS this year.

Dante did almost 6% better on Ratchet than Luigi.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

'course Luigi also killed Ratchet and ended up weaker than Jill and Dante let Tails get 42% on him and get stomped on by Sonic.

I may be wrong, but I think that in that match it was FF7 that destroyed Kerrigan, not Vincent.

That's the type of logic I'd use for Tifa vs Vyse, not so much for Vincent vs Kerrigan.
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The Power is Yours.

Just because this is Vincent's first year, it doesn't mean that he can't be a powerhouse.

I never said he couldn't but you should hold off another nine hours or so before considering him that strong. That's all I'm saying. It's not you, it's those who are damn near convinced that he's a total powerhouse.
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"Kerrigan's strength is unknown. She could be on the level of Guybrush for all we know."

Grasping for straws

"Vincent could be part of the choke family through, he destroys fodder but chokes in round 2 and 3."

Grasping for straws

"I may be wrong, but I think that in that match it was FF7 that destroyed Kerrigan, not Vincent."

Grasping for straws

Notice a trend? Some people are trying to do absolutely anything to convince themselves that Vincent can still lose, even if they go against all logic... heck, even if it goes against their own logic from less than a month ago. They are desperate to convince themselves, and in their frustration some of them have gotten rather vile towards us backing Vincent even though it looks to me like we're out numbered 2 to 1 at this very moment.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

I have yet to see anyone state that they actually expect Vincent to beat Crono, or that he deserves to be the favorite.

So lets end all bashing of this non-existent group of people right now.

As for Vincent challenging Crono, that is certainly a possibility.

Yet those same people who say that we should believe that Dante can challenge Vincent because we can't know for sure where Vincent is at, are the ones who say that Vincent can't challenge Crono. When the evidence is clearly in favor of the latter rather than the former.

People seem to continue to have this bias against new characters being strong, and it is irrational.
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there is no way vincent will beat crono
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