And Aeris SFF > Sora was obvious,

I've taken this entirely out of context just to make a point. Directly after Aeris/Sora, I'm fairly certain no one said a thing much about sff. It wasn't until last year that huge sff was taken into account for.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Old Klingon Proverb

Not that this is really that relevant, but Dante *has* broken 70,000 votes:

Like I said, in 2k3, Dante > Sonic. And Ryu too, I suppose. Bowser's vote total vs. Ness was also spectacular. Heh, Ness over Bowser: my dumbest pick ever? Probably.

Considering that 2002 was the single most ****ed up year (save perhaps this one)... and considering that it had the most erratic vote totals of them all, I don't think it's fair to compare 2002 with this year, or in fact any other contests.

There was nothing ****ed up about 2k2. While it's true that vote totals increased as the contest progressed, Sonic, Samus, Mega Man, and Seph were all in the same division, and Snake came before any of them, which only makes his high totals more confusing. Vote totals are random, they have nothing to do with strength.
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

<3 Samus > Cloud.
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

For the record, I think (not sure) 2k5 Sora would be projected to beat 2k3 Aeris, assuming a constant Alucard.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

Well... I have my power back. Nothing of interest going on in this topic though...
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

It had higher vote totals because it was a Square/Nintendo match.

Okay, so? It's a well-known fact that square and Nintendo draw the most votes, so they are the strongest.

Not that this is really that relevant, but Dante *has* broken 70,000 votes:

I wouldn't call that irrelevant. It's interesting food for thought.

I was partly talking about Samus SFFing Isaac too, something that nobody ever seems to mention.

Why would you mention a Golden Sun character? That has nothing to do with Mega Man or Samus's ranking.

Apparently all those Xbox haters are Sony haters too...just look how poorly Crash did. GS >>> TLA, IIRC.

Umm... no one really cares about Crash anymore.

As for the last paragraph... I don't know what to say. If you want to think that, that's fine, and there's really nothing to debate about it.
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The Power is Yours.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=1310
http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=1309

Luigi was supposed to be a threat to Samus and possibly a threat to Link. He was the single most hyped character. It was reinforced when Luigi tripled a popular platforming character (and broke 70k in votes at that) while Squall "struggled" with Jill.

The problem there being a lack of people paying attention. Jill was a sweet 16 character from the previous year. In fact, Squall destroying her like that should have been a huge tipoff that he was much, much stronger than in 2k2. There were also warning signs about Ratchet. In 2k2 Spyro was one of the weakest characters in the contest, and right after Luigi beat Ratchet, KOS-MOS crunched Crash Bandicoot, indicating PS platformers were weak (a pattern which I ignored to my detriment in 2k4). We have similar such indications here, which people are once again ignoring. Blizzard entries have done very well in this contest, whereas characters from FF's before FF7 have failed to a man. Let's not even get started on what FF7 characters have previously done in the contest.
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Vincent WILL break 60% on Dante.
(Place Holder for sig bet with YoYoChamp made 3/24/05)

Blizzard entries have done very well in this contest, whereas characters from FF's before FF7 have failed to a man.

Diablo bombed against Kratos Aurion.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

From: FastFalcon05 | Posted: 8/29/2005 4:11:30 PM | Message Detail | #300
Ha, I was just thinking about stat fads, the best one, even if we never believed it, was Samus > Cloud last year

That was because Slowflake likes the stats too much.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

For the record, I think (not sure) 2k5 Sora would be projected to beat 2k3 Aeris, assuming a constant Alucard.

Ah, not quite, 2k3 Aeris would still beat him. It would be closer, supposedly, but given what happened to Bowser, Ganondorf, and Squall in 2k4, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Aeris 60-40 him.
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Vincent WILL break 60% on Dante.
(Place Holder for sig bet with YoYoChamp made 3/24/05)

Like I said, in 2k3, Dante > Sonic. And Ryu too, I suppose.

Sonic and Ryu faced stronger competition. You may also notice that Sonic's match drew a hell of a lot more total votes than Dante's match.

There was nothing ****ed up about 2k2. While it's true that vote totals increased as the contest progressed, Sonic, Samus, Mega Man, and Seph were all in the same division, and Snake came before any of them, which only makes his high totals more confusing.

Like I said, 2002 made little-to-no-sense. Claire Redfield ranking at 11? Mario vs Cloud fiasco? Vote totals were erratic. They slowly increased as the contest progresed, but it was far from a definitive trend.

Vote totals are random, they have nothing to do with strength.

... Yes, they do. I'm not trying to tell you to ignore percentages. But to say that vote totals are totally unrelated is asinine.
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The Power is Yours.

welcome back, mnm.

two things:

1.) Crono is actually holding his own during the day vote. interesting.

2.) Terra over Dante was a more trendy upset pick than Kerrigan over Vincent, yet Dante got 70%. I'm not saying that Dante is the favourite here (he's a heavy underdog), but to say that Vincent/Kerrigan was a debated match is just wrong. it was talked about, yeah, but very few people had Kerrigan beating Vincent. Vincent fans seem to have an inferiority complex or something, because most of the topic expects Vincent to get to Crono at this point. I'm not looking forward to tomorrow's match, because it's going to be a bragfest when Vincent wins as if he wasn't expected to do so.
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http://picturesofwalls.com

Claire ranked 13th.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

I've taken this entirely out of context just to make a point. Directly after Aeris/Sora, I'm fairly certain no one said a thing much about sff. It wasn't until last year that huge sff was taken into account for.

Which was why those of us who thought he was were happy to add Sora's two upsets last year. I know I argued till I was blue in the face he'd been SFF'd in the weeks leading up to 2k4.
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Vincent WILL break 60% on Dante.
(Place Holder for sig bet with YoYoChamp made 3/24/05)

Claire ranked 13th.

Gah, damn you Ulti!
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The Power is Yours.

.In 2k2 Spyro was one of the weakest characters in the contest, and right after Luigi beat Ratchet, KOS-MOS crunched Crash Bandicoot, indicating PS platformers were weak (a pattern which I ignored to my detriment in 2k4).

Yeah, but Jak is actually pretty strong, and Ratchet is from the PS2, not the PS1.

Yes, they do. I'm not trying to tell you to ignore percentages. But to say that vote totals are totally unrelated is asinine

Look at how high something like Jill vs. Kirby is in 2k2...and then Tidus vs. Kirby is wholly unimpressive, despite being Nintendo vs. Square. Why was Zero vs. Scorpion so much higher than the rest of Round 1? Why does Seph usually get higher vote totals than Link? Why does Magus get complete **** for vote totals? How come Luigi scores more votes that Yoshi? Why was Mega Man vs. Tommy a big match vote-wise, but not Crono vs. Tommy? Why was Snake a bigger draw in 2k2 than in 2k3? Why are Shadow and Tidus big draws?
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

Again, I'm not trying to use vote totals as my sole way of predicting matches. But please, take a look at this:

1) Cloud Strife 2003 (94K)
2) Link 2003 (93K)
3) Mega Man 2003 (92K)
4) Sephiroth 2003 (90K)
5) Sephiroth 2003 (90K)
6) Mario 2003 (89K)
7) Crono 2003 (88K)
8) Solid Snake 2003 (84K)
9) Cloud Strife 2003 (82K)
10) Link 2003 (81K)

I hardly think that those are weak characters.
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The Power is Yours.

3) Mega Man 2003 (92K)
4) Sephiroth 2003 (90K)

I think that's all I need to point out.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

1) Cloud Strife 2003 (94K)
2) Link 2003 (93K)
3) Mega Man 2003 (92K)
4) Sephiroth 2003 (90K)
5) Sephiroth 2003 (90K)
6) Mario 2003 (89K)
7) Crono 2003 (88K)
8) Solid Snake 2003 (84K)
9) Cloud Strife 2003 (82K)
10) Link 2003 (81K)

...

21) Dante 2003 74068
22) Sonic 2003 73484
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

vote totals: people are more likely to vote if they know a character that's in it. go look at Vyse/Laharl to compare. that's why the stronger characters get more votes, or two separate fanbases (Square/Nintendo, for example) combine for the most votes. to say that 5k more votes means that they're stronger, though, is wrong, since there are many variables to take into account such as day of the week or what new games are out.
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http://picturesofwalls.com

Look at how high something like Jill vs. Kirby is in 2k2...and then Tidus vs. Kirby is wholly unimpressive, despite being Nintendo vs. Square. Why was Zero vs. Scorpion so much higher than the rest of Round 1? Why does Seph usually get higher vote totals than Link? Why does Magus get complete **** for vote totals? How come Luigi scores more votes that Yoshi? Why was Mega Man vs. Tommy a big match vote-wise, but not Crono vs. Tommy? Why was Snake a bigger draw in 2k2 than in 2k3? Why are Shadow and Tidus big draws?

*takes deep breath*

1) Like I said, I'm going to ignore 2002 for all intents and purposes for this argument.

2) Zero vs Scorpion wasn't that far out at all. Sephiroth vs Raziel came within 2000 votes of it, and after that, Auron vs Tails. Remember that Zero is a very strong character than that Scorpion made the final 8 in 2002.

3) Sephiroth gets more votes than Link in 2003 because the site was more Square-toned bakc then.

4) Magus gets **** for vote totals because he's old-school and fairly obscure.

5) Luigi isn't much more of a draw than Yoshi.

6) Mega Man vs Tommy was a big match because it was hyped (for casuals, at least). Tommy was supposed to be a champion contender, and he'd already gone two rounds in.

7) Snake had better opponents in 2002. MGS SFF < Squall. Knuckles is the same. FFVII > Ryu.

8) I don't know, but remember that in 2003, they were ranked very high.

9) And finally, just remember that this is ONLY A GENERAL GUIDELINE. When two characters are as close as Luigi and Yoshi, there is little point in arguing over small petty factors.
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The Power is Yours.

I think that's all I need to point out.

Yes, because Mega Man was terribly weak in 2003.
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The Power is Yours.

vote totals: people are more likely to vote if they know a character that's in it. go look at Vyse/Laharl to compare. that's why the stronger characters get more votes, or two separate fanbases (Square/Nintendo, for example) combine for the most votes. to say that 5k more votes means that they're stronger, though, is wrong, since there are many variables to take into account such as day of the week or what new games are out.

Once again, look at my list of questions. There are plenty of exceptions to rules, although I will agree that unknowns tend to score poorly vote-wise.
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

21) Dante 2003 74068
22) Sonic 2003 73484

It's rather unfortunate that Sonic got shafted during the site's best year. If he had had a real 15-seed instead of Ken Masters, he would be much higher up.
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The Power is Yours.

Yes, because Mega Man was terribly weak in 2003.

Because Seph beat Mega Man with over 60%, I think you mean.

Remember that Zero is a very strong character than that Scorpion made the final 8 in 2002.

Zero is strong, but please don't talk about Scorpion's final 8 run. Jill and Kirby were both better than him then, and they're hardly impressive.

Sephiroth gets more votes than Link in 2003 because the site was more Square-toned bakc then.

So why does he keep doing it in 2k4?

Magus gets **** for vote totals because he's old-school and fairly obscure.

Just like Crono and Frog, yet their vote totals are pretty good. Even Kefka gets better vote totals than Magus.

Luigi isn't much more of a draw than Yoshi.

But Yoshi is much stronger than Luigi.

Mega Man vs Tommy was a big match because it was hyped (for casuals, at least). Tommy was supposed to be a champion contender, and he'd already gone two rounds in.

It was hyped...even after Tommy vs. DK? What?

Snake had better opponents in 2002. MGS SFF < Squall. Knuckles is the same. FFVII > Ryu.

Cloud vs. Auron scored more than Cloud vs. Bowser or Sonic, SFF doesn't automatically mean low votes. And...why does Aeris draw more votes than Ryu? It's just one of those exceptions, FFVII characters draw high vote totals, even relative to their strength.

I don't know, but remember that in 2003, they were ranked very high.

Unfairly.
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

As for something new: if Terra = Kerrigan, Vincent gets 63.2% on Dante. Does anyone really think that Kerrigan > Terra?
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

Terra >>>> Kerrigan.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

It's a shame that after Vincent owns them yet again, all these delusional Vincent doubters won't think to themselves "Well golly gee, my doubting of Vincent was delusional this whole time!"
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www.SC2K5.com
www.sc2k5.com/gallery

It's a shame that after Vincent owns them yet again, all these delusional Vincent doubters won't think to themselves "Well golly gee, my doubting of Vincent was delusional this whole time!"

Well, perhaps they'll argue that Vincent SFF'd Dante...after all, it's only a little less ridiculous than thinking Sephiroth SFF'd Auron but not Vivi.
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Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

It's a shame that after Vincent owns them yet again, all these delusional Vincent doubters won't think to themselves "Well golly gee, my doubting of Vincent was delusional this whole time!"

...

And people were saying the Vincent supporters aren't arrogant.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

"At this point I don't care if Dante loses (though it will be better if he did) all I really want is all the Vincent > Crono supporters to shut up."

Anyone else find it amusing that it's the opposition that has spent more time talking about Vincent > Crono than the people that would actually like to see it? There's about 2-3 times more posts in the 5 pages previous to that statement implying that Vincent is going to bomb. Exactly why should we not talk up our favorite characters when people spend significantly more time talking them down? Really, if you were just about anyone else I'd have marked your post because you are being an ass, and you're blowing it all out of proportion. You take it when someone says "Vincent's a threat" to mean Vincent > Crono when no one is saying that. Just knock it off, you're making yourself look as bad as Tai was when he first came to this topic. Childish, misinformed, biased, and willing to take everyone elses comments out of context to suit you own purposes. It's disgusting, and frankly I had previously held you in higher regard.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

It's a shame that after Vincent owns them yet again, all these delusional Vincent doubters won't think to themselves "Well golly gee, my doubting of Vincent was delusional this whole time!"

Eh, this next match doesn't bother me at all, because Terra's winning, yay! Also, as long as Vincent doesn't beat Squall, I don't really care if he gets 95% on Dante.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Old Klingon Proverb

You take it when someone says "Vincent's a threat" to mean Vincent > Crono when no one is saying that.

...
You didn't see the last topic, did you?
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

95% on Dante? that sounds like a good goal. I'll do what I can to make it happen.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Because Seph beat Mega Man with over 60%, I think you mean.

Can you please take a moment to consider that maybe, maybe this doesn't RANK the characters, but merely PLACES them? Mega Man is PLACED among the elite because he's a great vote drawer, and he can get a good percentage.

Zero is strong, but please don't talk about Scorpion's final 8 run. Jill and Kirby were both better than him then, and they're hardly impressive.

The casuals could see it.

So why does he keep doing it in 2k4?

He doesn't. And Sephiroth and Link are both high-tier anyway, so it's really a moot-point.

Just like Crono and Frog, yet their vote totals are pretty good. Even Kefka gets better vote totals than Magus.

Frog got good vote totals because he was in close matches. Kefka is the main villain of a game, and he is perenially overestimated by bracketmakers.

But Yoshi is much stronger than Luigi.

A 55-45 beating doesn't put him on a different tier.

It was hyped...even after Tommy vs. DK? What?

GTA? Hello? 2003 was clearly Vercetti's best year.

Cloud vs. Auron scored more than Cloud vs. Bowser or Sonic, SFF doesn't automatically mean low votes. And...why does Aeris draw more votes than Ryu? It's just one of those exceptions, FFVII characters draw high vote totals, even relative to their strength.

Because they're from ****ing Final Fantasy VII. I don't know about Sonic and Bowser, because as you stated, there can be exceptions. Personally I think it was more Cloud vs Auron being unusual.

Unfairly.

You may think so, but that's how they were ranked.

And haven't you realized that the highest matches are the ones with the strongest/Noble Nine characters? Do I really need another chart?
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The Power is Yours.

95% on Dante? that sounds like a good goal. I'll do what I can to make it happen.

You have a lot of rabid fools to assassinate, grasshopper. ~_^
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The Power is Yours.

Yes, but just from being in this topic I know some names of who to start with. We'll be seeing Vincent with 95% on Link by the time I'm done, bwahahahahahahha.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

From: Draco1214 | Posted: 8/29/2005 5:09:07 PM | Message Detail | #330
And people were saying the Vincent supporters aren't arrogant.

OK, what? Are you kidding?

Last round, I flat-out told Kerrigan supporters that they were delusional. I was proven right.

And yet these same people now go merrily about their way in doubting Vincent again. It's unbelievable.

They even try to act as if their faith in Kerrigan wasn't ridiculous to begin with.

The only arrogance here is displayed by those people who were proven wrong before, and yet insist on clinging to their mis-guided point of view.
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www.sc2k5.com/gallery

I supported Vincent against Kerrigan because I knew she would be extremely weak. This time, I think Dante will beat him.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

I'm so glad there aren't many threats when it comes to winning a contest. With that sort of mentality I should be able to pull something off even without the Magus points.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

You had Magus over Vincent?
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The Power is Yours.

To turn the topic to something else, does anyone know what happened to mmxcalibur? The last update to his site was August 14th.
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Vincent WILL break 60% on Dante.
(Place Holder for sig bet with YoYoChamp made 3/24/05)

...I think Sabin......forgot?

As someone stated previously, some characters are bigger draws than others because they are someone voters feel strongly about, and it doesn't necessarily mean they feel strongly FOR them. Heck, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would go out of their way to vote against Cloud or Sephiroth, regardless of whether they like the other character or not. It likely holds true for others.

Another reason for some matches having higher is due to a smaller fanbase overlap. I think Snake/Zelda and Ryu/Rikku are two examples of such an occasion, as they appeal to very different audiences. I think that's also part of the reason a match like Squall/Kirby ranks among the highest in vote totals for 2004. There is just so little common ground there (even though I love both of them to death).

Then you've also got to think that closer matches will draw higher vote totals. I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that some people look at the results before voting, and if it's close enough, they'll give a vote. If it's a blowout, they might not bother. Knuckles and Magus generally are not big draws, but their match had a lot of votes because it was close.

And finally, the most obvious reason for certain characters getting high vote totals is that they really are strong. There's a reason why the most popular polls in contest history are littered with names like Cloud, Link, Sephiroth, Mario, and Crono.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that some people look at the results before voting, and if it's close enough, they'll give a vote

...or that, after voting, they involve friends in voting for their favourite character ;)
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Currently playing: Killer7 [GC] + Yoshi Touch & Go [DS]

Yes. Don't ask me to explain to deeply, let's just say that like most other people one or two good looking matches blinded me into thinking his 2k3 stats was still mostly relevant. Combine that with the fact that I was trying to keep my bias in check and you have Vincent out round 3. Of course, obviously I should have followed my bias in terms of Vincent because he's statistically equivalent to god now.

And yes, I will continue to grow more and more arrogant the more I (or anyone who is being realistic on the Vincent matter) are called as such. Really, 5 of the longest running stats topic members (perhaps the 5) are in earnest calling this a breeze for Vincent and they're being called arrogant. Well, dammit, even if the rest don't agree with me I think the only recourse is to be arrogant just to show them what it really means. Enjoy.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Hey Chichiri, how far do you have Vincent and Bowser going?
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

I think he has Bowser to the Final Four, Vincent losing to Magus. Neither of which will happen. ;)
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Only the Snake is the true hero. Solid Snake to the Final Four!

I don't regret taking Kerrigan to beat Vincent, nor Terra over Dante. Both were characters from very strong games in the Spring, and they had a chance at success. I was much more disappointed in Terra than Kerrigan though. Kerrigan, for me, always had to rely on Vincent being an absolute flop, while I thought Terra had a decent chance at winning on her own.

If I had Dante, I would still feel ok going into this match. After all I took Terra over Kerrigan.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Old Klingon Proverb

In my bracket Bowser falls to Samus and Vincent falls to Magus... In my heart Kirby falls to Mario and Vincent takes the whole damn thing, including the ToC.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!