"Why is Aeris didn't get the support Vincent and Tifa are apparently getting?"

Why indeed would Vincent and Tifa magically get all this support while Aeris didn't? Perhaps it's because liek so many other "arguments" claiming that either character is performing outside of their actual strength is ridiculous. Aeris had a set strength, just being from FF7 never modified that and never gave her an extra advantage against fodder, so why would any other FF7 characters get that? They wouldn't, ergo it's a ridiculous argument that shouldn't have been talked about this long. Too bad the Vincent haters don't have any real ground to argue on, it'd make this topic more interesting.

"As to your last point, anyone can get blowouts given the right opponent."

So far "the right opponent" has existed about half a dozen times and has always been among the lowest of seeds possible. Tenpenny, Ms. Pac-Man, Tanner, they were all at best one seed from the lowest possible... Heck, even the next level up with Ratchet and such never did better than a 10-14 seed.

To say that "the right opponent" is going to, for the first time in the history (barring one) of the contest, break the top half and even be the higher seeded character is ridiculous. It hasn't happened since Serious Sam, and that's because we didn't actually have a good nomination system in place.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Sadly I could see this happening.

I'm sorta counting on that.
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www.geocities.com/shdwdde/Fanfic/SC2K5CYOA
The Power is Yours.

Oh, and as for myself, in case anyone was unclear on this, I'm thinking that Kerrigan will at least be strong enough so that whatever Vincent got on her would about equal a 60% on Dante, probably.

I don't know the X-Sts at all, really, so I have no idea where that would place her. >_>

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Kerrigan's seeding I blame on the board rallying at nomination time, but your argument is a good one.

About Aeris, I'm still not sure I understand. Are you saying her set limit is less than the others because you don't think she's as popular among FF7 fans? Or is it because the others are starring in other media (DoC, AC)?
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

Too bad the Vincent haters don't have any real ground to argue on, it'd make this topic more interesting.

Vincent and Kerrigan are both new. That's enough grounds for me to not only doubt him against Dante but favor Squall against him, should he survive Dante.
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Old Klingon Proverb

"And the suggestion that Kerrigan is weaker than Guybrush, for example, isn't grasping at straws - it is a real, though unlikely, possibility."

Show me one shred of evidence that points her in that direction and I'll conceede it isn't grasping at straws. Frankly, these people are building their argument backwards. Instead of putting together what she has to come up with her strength they've decided she must be weak so they are pointing out every little thing they can to make their argument look good. This from people that thought she wouldn't even be near doubled.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Well... Is there real evidence to the contrary? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking. Why is the burden of proof only on them?

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

Show me one shred of evidence that points her in that direction and I'll conceede it isn't grasping at straws.

Kerrigan is from an ensemble cast of a PC game people mostly play for the multiplayer, while Guybrush is the main character of an cult PC game that has a rabid following.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

Tanner > Kerrigan
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"No, you see. Here's the problem. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do." - Tom Cruise

"Kerrigan's seeding I blame on the board rallying at nomination time, but your argument is a good one."

It's not the first case of board rallying, and even the SpC2k5 shows that rallying can only do so much for a character, eventually the popular choices still win out. There was no board rally for Seph, in fact IIRC he got less than Vincent on B8, and he still took a top seed. To get in the upper half you need more than just a board rally, and I'd be doubfounded if there were any less than 100 noms for Kerrigan (who only took 70 some from the board).

"About Aeris, I'm still not sure I understand."

I'm saying that she doens't do extra well for being in FF7. Peopel are trying to convince themselves that Tifa and Vincent did better than they should have because FF7 murders fodder and that when they face some real competition they will just fall apart. Aeris has been in the same situation, and she never did better agianst fodder than she should have. Really, all we have to do is look at Ansem vs. CATS to realize that franchise voting isn't real and that no one over performs on Fodder just because they are from a popular game.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Lol, people are STILL giving Vincent the championship? This all smells like "not confident, get swipes in now before he chokes against Dante" rather than "let's wait for 24 hours when he's killed Dante and people actually have a sensible read on him, THEN talk him up".

I'm not sure who'd laugh more in the event of a Dante win, me or ertyu. Probably ertyu, but I'd laugh a lot.
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Jon Thomson - MARIO, Samus, SOLID SNAKE, Bowser, CRONO, Squall, Sonic, MEGA MAN

From: The n00b Avenger | Posted: 8/29/2005 7:03:20 PM | Message Detail
Tanner > Kerrigan

We agree.

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

I don't think anyone is giving Vincent the championship right now. You're not helping our attempts to make this a civil conversation.
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

No one is giving Vincent the championship, some people just aren't ignoring the possibility.
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

The impossible possibility?

>____>

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

"Well... Is there real evidence to the contrary?"

He has accomplished something no character outside of the Noble 9 had done before him, and he passed that mark with ease.

There are about 2 instances where a low-midcarder got close to or passed a tripling. One of those midcarders had a match in this contest that made him look near elite.

Since proper seeding been instituted no character under 11% on BL has managed better than a 10 seed, let alone the 7-8 that Kerrigan represents.

There's plenty of reason to believe that Vincent isn't falling to Dante, there's plenty of reason to believe he could keep Crono well under 60%
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

heh, the Vincent supporters think everyone's not giving him a fair chance while the Vincent haters think everyone's giving him the championship. the truth is somewhere inbetween, guys.
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http://picturesofwalls.com

Knuckles Vs. Akira FTW.
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"No, you see. Here's the problem. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do." - Tom Cruise

Okay, so there are many things circumstancially that suggest that, and when combined make for a compelling argument, but there isn't a "smoking gun"... Is that about right?

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

"Kerrigan is from an ensemble cast of a PC game people mostly play for the multiplayer, while Guybrush is the main character of an cult PC game that has a rabid following. "

And that's not a single shred of evidence. You're building your argument to prove Kerrigan is weak, and leaving out critical details. SC has sold approximatly a bajillion times more copies than all of the Monkey Island games combined, they are hardly comparable at all.

Hell, if Kerrigan were any more proiment in her game it'd be more accurate to draw comparisons to Duke Nukem, but barring that she ius far more similar to Gordon Freeman than Guybrush.

So I say again, bring me a shred of evidence.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Knuckles beating Vincent in the Division Final would be really funny, by the way...
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Currently playing: Killer7 [GC] + Yoshi Touch & Go [DS]

From: lettuce Kefka | Posted: 8/30/2005 12:08:49 AM | #464
No one is giving Vincent the championship

I get that impression the way people are talking. The way some people are talking, Vincent's some invincible behemoth that has the powers of Darth Vader, James Bond, Captain Planet, Link and CATS combined.

From: transience | Posted: 8/30/2005 12:11:33 AM | #467
heh, the Vincent supporters think everyone's not giving him a fair chance while the Vincent haters think everyone's giving him the championship. the truth is somewhere inbetween, guys.

Of course. Beating Dante would be reasonable. Doubling Dante isn't. Going on to beat Squall, Crono, Mega Man, Mario, Sephiroth and Link is just silly.
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Jon Thomson - MARIO, Samus, SOLID SNAKE, Bowser, CRONO, Squall, Sonic, MEGA MAN

The way some people are talking, Vincent's some invincible behemoth that has the powers of Darth Vader, James Bond, Captain Planet, Link and CATS combined.

I suggest you pay closer attention.
---
www.geocities.com/shdwdde/Fanfic/SC2K5CYOA
The Power is Yours.

It's not the first case of board rallying, and even the SpC2k5 shows that rallying can only do so much for a character, eventually the popular choices still win out. There was no board rally for Seph, in fact IIRC he got less than Vincent on B8, and he still took a top seed. To get in the upper half you need more than just a board rally, and I'd be doubfounded if there were any less than 100 noms for Kerrigan (who only took 70 some from the board).

Ceej specifically made that contest so he could retire Seph... did you honestly think that he wasn't going to get a 1 seed? Anyway, I'm sure you could find other examples, just saying that was a poor one.

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

SC has sold approximatly a bajillion times more copies than all of the Monkey Island games combined

And persons who bought StarCraft (and loved it) are used to visit GameFAQs?

I don't think that GameFAQs is visited by many PC players...
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Currently playing: Killer7 [GC] + Yoshi Touch & Go [DS]

Hell, if Kerrigan were any more proiment in her game it'd be more accurate to draw comparisons to Duke Nukem, but barring that she ius far more similar to Gordon Freeman than Guybrush.

I think that your comparison to Duke Nukem works very well, except that he stars in his game, has his games named after him, isn't from an ensemble cast, and doesn't have to assume that you played through the entire first game and then got to the expansion pack to actually see why some people like him.

And I think that difference may be worth begrudging her 3 - 5% off her strength, in all honesty.

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

"Knuckles Vs. Akira FTW."

Knux vs. Magus FTW. The echidna is not a low midcarder, and would put up a respectable fight against Dante. 2k4 stats have that at a 49-51 match in Dante's favor. GG, take your ball and go home.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

I just wanted to post with this account. It's an alt for Luni.

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Current Score: 45 - Next match - Crono

From: jonthomson | Posted: 8/30/2005 12:15:44 AM | Message Detail
I get that impression the way people are talking. The way some people are talking, Vincent's some invincible behemoth that has the powers of Darth Vader, James Bond, Captain Planet, Link and CATS combined.

I've seen no one say he's defiantly going to the championship, yet, I see many complaining about it. That's likely where you get your impression from...
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

I get that impression the way people are talking. The way some people are talking, Vincent's some invincible behemoth that has the powers of Darth Vader, James Bond, Captain Planet, Link and CATS combined.

The lack of Sean Connery makes me weep.... WEEP!

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

Kerrigan should probably be compared to 2002 Gordon rather than his later incarnations since he was getting joke votes from there after.

At first, there was over-estimation of Kerrigan. Then there was over-estimation of Vincent. Now, comin' at you like a freight-train is over-estimation of how many people are honestly over-estimating Vincent.
---
Hillary Clinton: We need to treat violent video games the way we treat tobacco or alcohol.
Lewis Black: Namely as valued contributors to our re-election fund.

HaRRicH wins this topic. >_>
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

"Ceej specifically made that contest so he could retire Seph... did you honestly think that he wasn't going to get a 1 seed? Anyway, I'm sure you could find other examples, just saying that was a poor one."

Are you even reading the conversation, or do you just want me to put you on the Short Bus List? I know damn well what that contest was for, if you read the first page of this very topic you'd see me ranting about it, the point was that the stronger characters still rise above the chaff in a proper nomination system even when the boards are against them doing so. Kerrigan making the top half of the bracket pretty well assures us that she'd at least crack 11% on BL and that there were people outside this board that wanted her here.
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

Oh, you're so awesome. You told someone that wasn't even arguing with you to take his ball and go home. I bow to your clear superiority. And by superiority I mean pettiness.
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"No, you see. Here's the problem. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do." - Tom Cruise

SC has sold

I'm not saying vincent isn't incredibly strong, but sales mean next to nothing. The driver series has also sold millions (I believe) keep in mind, and that series, unlike starcraft, revolves around the single player.
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Please sign this petition for a history board:
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I just think it's absolutely ridiculous to say that Vincent Valentine, a newcomer who beat a newcomer, whose strength we know nothing about, can beat one of the three people who are thought to be capable of winning the contest.

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

Actually I kind of doubt Starcraft sold a bajillion times more than all of Monkey Island games combined. A couple of the MI games have pretty good sales.
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Leon's Quest For Ultimate Glory:
1. Gordon Freeman; 2. Mega Man

When this topic hits 500 I'm done for the night. Hurry it up people!
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For every vote Vincent gets, Jack Thompson sues the video game industry.
4th/125 in the Guru Standings.

Are you even reading the conversation, or do you just want me to put you on the Short Bus List? I know damn well what that contest was for, if you read the first page of this very topic you'd see me ranting about it, the point was that the stronger characters still rise above the chaff in a proper nomination system even when the boards are against them doing so. Kerrigan making the top half of the bracket pretty well assures us that she'd at least crack 11% on BL and that there were people outside this board that wanted her here.

Calm it down there, my point was that when using that example, even if Seph got 0 nominations, yes I know it's impossible, but for arguements sake, Ceej would have given him the 1 seed. The point was that it doesn't matter if he had the board support, or outside support because he was going to get it no matter how many noms he got.

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Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

From: Delirium Trigger | Posted: 8/30/2005 12:21:27 AM | Message Detail
I just think it's absolutely ridiculous to say that Vincent Valentine, a newcomer who beat a newcomer, whose strength we know nothing about, can beat one of the three people who are thought to be capable of winning the contest.

I don't see how it's any more ridiculous than denying it, since we have just as much evidence either way.
---
Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

"I think that your comparison to Duke Nukem works very well, except that he stars in his game, has his games named after him, isn't from an ensemble cast, and doesn't have to assume that you played through the entire first game and then got to the expansion pack to actually see why some people like him."

As per the line you also quoted: "but barring that she is far more similar to Gordon Freeman than Guybrush."

There's no sense in trying to break down my argument if you're going to ignore the actual assumption, my friend. Please, please don't lower your standards to the same as the rest of them. You of all people should be able to stick to the actual point of a post, I'd assume, instead of tearing apart the inconcequnetial portions of it.

"And I think that difference may be worth begrudging her 3 - 5% off her strength, in all honesty."

So yeah, Gordon Freeman then?
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First you make a circle, then you dot the eyes, add a great big smile and presto, it's Kirby!

I'm not denying it, I just don't think it should be taken seriously, it could happen, I'm not saying there is no chance it can't, but there's nothing indicating that it will at this moment in time.

---
Explicit Content.
Cheer Up Emo Kids.

Dante, for the win!
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine

From: Delirium Trigger | Posted: 8/30/2005 12:24:50 AM | Message Detail
I'm not denying it, I just don't think it should be taken seriously, it could happen, I'm not saying there is no chance it can't, but there's nothing indicating that it will at this moment in time.

I think an 81% win should be taken seriously, you should defiantly consider the possibility.
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

There's no sense in trying to break down my argument if you're going to ignore the actual assumption, my friend. Please, please don't lower your standards to the same as the rest of them. You of all people should be able to stick to the actual point of a post, I'd assume, instead of tearing apart the inconcequnetial portions of it.

... To be perfectly honest, I wasn't trying to get off the actual point. I would've had to look at the X-Sts to see that you were suggesting that she was closer to Gordon Freeman, which I obviously didn't. >_>

... And apparently we agree on her strength, so.... Meh.

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Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg! ~ Tassadar

STARS

Knuckles > Squall. Surrender to truth.
---
Hillary Clinton: We need to treat violent video games the way we treat tobacco or alcohol.
Lewis Black: Namely as valued contributors to our re-election fund.

Hulk sucks

Vincent es dum.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 44/52 points
Current Match Prediction: Dante vs. Vincent Valentine