See, the difference there is that unlike a Sonic Mega Collection or a Mega Man Anniversary Collection, The Legend of Zelda Collection came packaged with the GameCube. Those others had to sell on their own little ability. No matter if you were a Zelda fan or not, when you bought a GameCube you got the free copy of the collection. During its time packaged, the GameCube sold around 1 - 2 million units, which gives the Collection roughly the same numbers. Considering there has been an increase for Zelda as a whole, it makes sense that this would be the reasoning as opposed to hype. I don't see the problem in believing this as the reason for the 4% boost.


My thoughts on the matter exactly.
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"All pretty girls are a trap, a pretty trap, and men expect them to be."
MasterMage119

See, the difference there is that unlike a Sonic Mega Collection or a Mega Man Anniversary Collection, The Legend of Zelda Collection came packaged with the GameCube. Those others had to sell on their own little ability. No matter if you were a Zelda fan or not, when you bought a GameCube you got the free copy of the collection. During its time packaged, the GameCube sold around 1 - 2 million units, which gives the Collection roughly the same numbers. Considering there has been an increase for Zelda as a whole, it makes sense that this would be the reasoning as opposed to hype. I don't see the problem in believing this as the reason for the 4% boost.

So from one to two million units, which is a relatively small subsection of sales, and then attribute those rereleases to the even smaller percentage of people that come here for a 4% increase?! I'm sorry, I don't buy it--though it seems more reasonable than any TP explanation.

Possibly. It came out around the 27th of August and Link/Cloud happened a few days later. It might have been too recent, but it might have helped.

It sold its best in those first days, outstripping any of the other versions in that time frame. If anything, LINK should have had the momentum that day.
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

I think the Cell Link/Adult Link is the best explanation for the Link "Increase". Cell Link could have driven away more casual Zelda fans [For example, liked OoT, disliked WW, not too fussed about Zelda as a whole] and could have encouraged more casual FFVII/Square fans to vote Cloud [Example: Like FFVII/Square, but not too fussed, Link is from disliked game, so voted Cloud].

Then Adult Link returns to the polls, and the casual votes may have turned around, favouring Link.
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

Considering there has been an increase for Zelda as a whole, it makes sense that this would be the reasoning as opposed to hype. I don't see the problem in believing this as the reason for the 4% boost.

That may be valid reasoning, but I still don't buy it. Seeing how popular Ocarina of Time was and the sheer sales numbers alone, I doubt that a good amount of those Gamecube sales are mutually exclusive with sales of the other Zelda games. At least not enough for the huge difference in Link's direct matchups with Cloud. I would put Soul Calibur II and Twilight Princess in front of LoZ Collection as far as Link's gains are concerned...

On the side, what are the sales of OoT again?
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

And while I still consider the cel-Link theory viable, I remember a time when people got laughed out of here for thinking that pictures could make so big of a difference. That change?
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

I think the Cell Link/Adult Link is the best explanation for the Link "Increase". Cell Link could have driven away more casual Zelda fans [For example, liked OoT, disliked WW, not too fussed about Zelda as a whole] and could have encouraged more casual FFVII/Square fans to vote Cloud [Example: Like FFVII/Square, but not too fussed, Link is from disliked game, so voted Cloud].

I've said before, I don't think WW Link was enough to make a great deal of voters NOT vote for Link (for example, I think they voted for Link in normal fashion against Aiai and Fox). But I think it is more than enough for someone to vote Cloud in his KH glory over him, especially seeing how they are the two most popular characters on the site.

Remember, a character drop in popularity doesn't necessarily mean that people are NOT voting for them, it simply means that there are more characters that they would vote over said character.
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MM are my INITIALS "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

I've said before, I don't think WW Link was enough to make a great deal of voters NOT vote for Link (for example, I think they voted for Link in normal fashion against Aiai and Fox). But I think it is more than enough for someone to vote Cloud in his KH glory over him, especially seeing how they are the two most popular characters on the site.

Remember, a character drop in popularity doesn't necessarily mean that people are NOT voting for them, it simply means that there are more characters that they would vote over said character.

Holy **** that makes a lot of sense. It's logical to think that the Wind Waker picture could have effected Link against the likes of Cloud or Samus, while bearing almost no relevance against weak bastards like Aiai.
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Board 8: Where people treat each other right.

Holy **** that makes a lot of sense. It's logical to think that the Wind Waker picture could have effected Link against the likes of Cloud or Samus, while bearing almost no relevance against weak bastards like Aiai.

Obviously. I've said it before. When it comes right down to it a voters mentality during one match won't necesarily be the same during another. People get too hung up in the transitive factor of the stats.
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"Opinions are like butts, little girl. Everyone's got one and nobody thinks their's stink." -Lunar 2:EB
*Claims KG's Eclair & Millia Rage*

Many of us have mentioned that before, I was just particular aroused by the way MNM worded it. So eloquent.
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Board 8: Where people treat each other right.

Thinking about it, the "Kingdom Hearts" factor/increase may only apply when the Kingdom Hearts picture is being used, I know this is sounding obvious and silly so far, but bare with me.

Everyone who has played and liked FFVII will very likely remember Cloud's name and recognise Cloud based off the Kingdom Hearts picture, even without knowing about Kingdom Hearts. Yet, the people who have played Kingdom Hearts without playing FFVII [This is likely a very small number, admittedly, and the main flaw in this theory], may not have remembered Cloud's name and might not be able be able to recognise Cloud based on his FFVII art. So, as a result, in '04 when Cloud mainly had FFVII:AC and FFVII pictures, this could have caused him to lose votes.

But, I'll admit, this whole theory is a little farfetched and may only account for a very few number of people, especially on GameFAQs.
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Ahem! There's LETTUCE on my boots!
http://www.geocities.com/lettucekefka/

Was Tifa in KH? I wouldn't know since I only got up to Aladdin's level before I gave up (sorry, but it wasn't my kind of game though the Disney nostalgia was nice).

Though if the KH factor came into play, she'd get boosted by association with FF7.
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Today's subliminal thought is:

No, only Cloud, Sephiroth, Yuffie, and Aeris were in KH. So theoretically, Tifa wouldn't get any direct boost from that, unless people were influenced to pick up FF7 after playing the game.
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

No. Tifa wasn't in KH. If Tifa didn't indeed get a recent boost in popularity (based on speculation as she hasn't even been on a contest yet) it was due to Advent Children.
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"Opinions are like butts, little girl. Everyone's got one and nobody thinks their's stink." -Lunar 2:EB
*Claims KG's Eclair & Millia Rage*

Oh, and Cid. Assuming we're just talking about FF7 characters.
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

No, only Cloud, Sephiroth, Yuffie, and Aeris were in KH. So theoretically, Tifa wouldn't get any direct boost from that, unless people were influenced to pick up FF7 after playing the game.

Yeah, if people played FF7 due to exposure in KH then they would know Tifa and others from that experience.
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Today's subliminal thought is:

Vinny and Tifa's huge performances seem to point more and more against KH being the sole reason for FF dominance in 2k3...

Hmm. This is much better than I expected from Tifa.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?

Er, yeah. Just back from the cricket. Either this is SFF or a random piece of FF7 furniture could make the last 16. I'll be back when I've read the topic.
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Jon Thomson - MARIO, Samus, SOLID SNAKE, Bowser, CRONO, Squall, Sonic, MEGA MAN

We've got high vote totals -- just like 2k3. This can't be beneficial for Vyse when compared to Tifa.
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even when a pawn becomes a queen, it's still just a playing piece -President Johnson, MGS2. SC2k5: 24/26. Today: Tifa, tomorrow: Luigi

Well, looks like Tifa's well on her way to getting about 79,000 votes. The same as Vincent.

Vincent=Tifa, Kerrigan almost=Vyse, anyone?
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"Thank you, Mario. But our princess is in another castle."
-Toad in Super Mario Bros.

Wow, I can't believe everyone's trying to sell Tifa short and coming up with whatever excuse they can to make her weaker than Sonic. Knuckles beats Magus and suddenly everyone thinks the stats don't work anymore. Or they think Tifa's just doing this because ANYONE from FFVII would do this, even Aeris. Or they think Vyse will suddenly drop to the level of Laharl. For one thing, Vyse is not a character with a reason to have large variations from year to year. He should remain relatively constant.

And Lopen, for Tifa not to be able to outdo what Squall did to Luigi, Vyse has to fall to at least 14.17% on Link. Are you trying to tell me he's suddenly on the level with Terry Bogard and Gordon Freeman, and that he would only get 45% on Laharl now? Give me a break.

I know people want to believe their bracket is still in the running, but please be realistic here. Tifa and Vincent have proven to be the real deal here. I want good legitimate reasons why Tifa can't beat Sonic. Don't give me "The stats have failed us every time!" They haven't. They're right more often than they're wrong, especially when we're dealing with a margin this large (Tifa would beat Sonic with 58%ish right now). And don't tell me it's because Sonic's an icon, he's more universally recognized, or whatever. Pac-Man has all of this in his favor, and he's fodder. This is Final Fantasy VII we're dealing with, folks. The biggest force on this site. There is no reason to believe that Tifa could not beat Sonic. Don't tell me we're suddenly going to talk about a lack of recognition with FFVII now.

Honestly, I think some of you are just getting desperate. I've pretty much conceded my bracket at this point because I know I'm not winning. I'm just calling it as I see it right now.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

Another thing that came to mind. If Sonic beats Tifa, that will put Jin Kazama over Vyse in the stats.

...Hmm. I really can't see that. I think Tifa's seriously the favorite to get out of this division right now. The only possibility that could give Sonic a chance is what Dabu's been advocating ("Pretty much all of the top tier characters will blow out fodder with approximately the same percentage; there shouldn't be any real surprises here"). I think there may be a grain of truth in that, but we haven't seen too much fodder that has gotten matches against multiple top tier characters in recent years, so we can't know.

So either Tifa wins, or the X-Stats start lookin real weird. I'd bet on Tifa, but wouldn't be surprised by the other.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?

I'm almost expecting Mega Man, being Mega Man, to beat Tifa 60-40 after she beats Sonic 55-45, then get doubled by Crono.
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That... was her final mission. And like a true soldier, she saw it through the end.
ZSB [aX]

Why can't anyone see Jin>Vyse?

I would pick Jin over Vyse without thinking. (Not that I like it)
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When this happened, all of us got PWND by Smurf
http://www.freewebs.com/vgcg/Knuckles.jpg

Vyse would beat Jin. Tekken just isn't popular around here.
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Summer 2005 Contest - 23/26 points
Current Match Prediction: Tifa Lockheart vs. Vyse

I think there may be a grain of truth in that, but we haven't seen too much fodder that has gotten matches against multiple top tier characters in recent years, so we can't know.

Looks like we can use Vyse now...4-5% worse than Cloud is not relatively the same. I honestly wouldn't see Sonic doing this either. We've seen variation with CATS, too. Vyse remained relatively unchanged in 2004 despite facing Cloud. There's no reason to believe that Tifa is doing something flukish to him that Cloud couldn't.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

Why can't anyone see Jin>Vyse?

Because sales =/= popularity. People just don't like Tekken here. Fighting games have never been big here. The only reason I'd think Ryu is so strong is because he's extremely recognizable and represents fighting games in general. For Jin to be stronger than Vyse, Sonic would have to hop up around Samus.

And yes, I expect people to jump all over me with this lack of transitivity and relying on the stats too much because trashing the stats is the chic thing to do, but they are reliable. They might not catch anomalies, but there's no reason to believe there's one here nor in Sonic/Jin.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

I can see Jin > Vyse... I don't know if I would take it, but it sure as hell is plausible. I think if I went up to 100 people on the street, and asked them if they knew what Tekken was, and what Skies of Arcadia was, that Tekken would be a lot more recognized. I'll have to see more to see if I stand behind this, but at this point in time, why not? All Jin has to do is avoid being fodder and he topples Vyse. >_>

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~This sig was pimped by Icon's sig~
Cheer up Emo kids.

Yeah. Nintendo and Square are just pulverizing everything.

Except Magus =D
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The King of all Cosmos' route to summer victory:
Round 1: (0) Voters

if I went up to 100 people on the street, and asked them if they knew what Tekken was, and what Skies of Arcadia was, that Tekken would be a lot more recognized.

The only problem is that it isn't random people off of the street voting. It's video gamers.

I'll have to see more to see if I stand behind this, but at this point in time, why not? All Jin has to do is avoid being fodder and he topples Vyse. >_>

Everyone expected Jin to be fodder before Saturday, and now he's not?
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

Because sales =/= popularity. People just don't like Tekken here. Fighting games have never been big here. The only reason I'd think Ryu is so strong is because he's extremely recognizable and represents fighting games in general. For Jin to be stronger than Vyse, Sonic would have to hop up around Samus.

And yes, I expect people to jump all over me with this lack of transitivity and relying on the stats too much because trashing the stats is the chic thing to do, but they are reliable. They might not catch anomalies, but there's no reason to believe there's one here nor in Sonic/Jin.

I agree with that, as the stats are more often right than they are wrong, it's just that when they are wrong, everyone wants to **** in their pants, and say the stats are so horribly flawed, spouting things like "LOWL X-STATS 4 LFE RIGHT?!?!?" with their insatiable wit.

However, I don't think you can say Sonic would have to jump up to the level of Samus for Jin to be stronger than Vyse, as we have no information on him. I mean if you want to go by sheer prediction of who would do better, go ahead, but it's far from accurate.

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~This sig was pimped by Icon's sig~
Cheer up Emo kids.

Everyone expected Luigi to breeze past Squall before their match happened... Fact of the matter is we don't know how strong Jin is and we won't know to this contest ends. This boards horribly overrated and underrated characters before.

I wouldn't say I didn't expect Jin to be fodder, but I *never* bought him at being at Terry Bogard's level.

I'll say it again. Tifa has a great shot at Sonic. Hell, I could even call her the favorite right now. But I'd stake my account that it ain't gonna be a 60/40 affair. I just can't fathom it.
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

But Vyse has no reason to have a large fluctuation. Not even in this match, as I don't think Tifa would do something to him that Cloud couldn't. I just can't see Jin not being fodder. I understand him possibly being the most popular Tekken fighter, but still...Who actually gives a crap about it here?
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

But I'd stake my account that it ain't gonna be a 60/40 affair.

Well, it wouldn't be. It'd be 57/43 or thereabouts based on this.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

I thought Jin was going to be fodder, and he still very well might be, but he could also not be fodder. I didn't think he was going to be horrendous fodder, but maybe in the 16-18 range. Speculating on a characters strength we have no idea of isn't doing us much good.

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~This sig was pimped by Icon's sig~
Cheer up Emo kids.

60/40, 57/43, whatever. I don't see either one of them breaking 52-53 percent, and even that's a stretch for me.
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

But Jin faced a 4-year contest veteran...We can gauge him relatively accurately based off of Sonic. This isn't newbie vs. newbie like Vincent/Kerrigan.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

Fighting games have never been big here

Then explain to me why the two Erhgeiz characters Tifa and Vincent did so well? >_>


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Yeah this was a lame joke.

Sonic is not invincible, folks. He can be beaten, and he can be beaten handily. We've seen it.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

But Sonic's strength has fluctuated before. In 2002 he was equal with Samus, then he got booted out of the top nine by Magus in 2003, then he returned back to form in 2004 (above Mega Man in the unadjusteds). Who knows what this year is like?
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I'm about to get sigged by Karma Hunter, and all I'll get is this lousy T-shirt.--Clockwork Dragon

I see no problem with where Jin would rate in the standings based on a relatively constant Sonic (around 33-34%). I would take Vyse over him without too much consideration. After all, we've seen him beat low fodder (Laharl), perform respectably against a mid-carder (DK), and not get embarassed by the best-of-the-best (Cloud)...and I have a hard time believing that Jin would do the same, because this site is far friendlier toward RPG characters than it is toward those from fighting games.
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ALL YOUR VOTES ARE BELONG TO...Pac-Man?

From: Zylo the wolf | Posted: 8/14/2005 3:31:41 PM | #373
I would pick Jin over Vyse without thinking.

I agree, one who picks Jin over Vyse clearly isn't thinking much.

Tifa seems to have stopped dropping, and maintains herself a few tenths above Samus' projection. This is looking better and better.

In conclusion, I'm disappointed at HM's burning hatred for trash cans.
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"You can't have gone over a kilometer up. 1500 meters, tops." -Samus Aran
"I'll express my love to you slowly, later." -Setzer Gabbiani

Indeed. If you think Cloud would fail to quadruple Jin, you're crazy.
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Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 2: (3) Mag...Er...(6) Knuckles the Echidna

I agree, one who picks Jin over Vyse clearly isn't thinking much.

XD
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When this happened, all of us got PWND by Smurf
http://www.freewebs.com/vgcg/Knuckles.jpg

What game is Vyse from again?
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Jon Thomson - MARIO, Samus, SOLID SNAKE, Bowser, CRONO, Squall, Sonic, MEGA MAN

I'm amazed that Sonic gains only one point on BL and suddenly everyone's all OMG BOOST!!!. A WDF adjustment would put Sonic in his standard 8th position in 2002, around his 2004 numbers. He's more consistent than he's given credit for.
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"You can't have gone over a kilometer up. 1500 meters, tops." -Samus Aran
"I'll express my love to you slowly, later." -Setzer Gabbiani

She's dropping...-_-
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Go Seahawks!
Playing: Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy VII, Knights of the Old Republic

That's what a bra is for. ~_^
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"You can't have gone over a kilometer up. 1500 meters, tops." -Samus Aran
"I'll express my love to you slowly, later." -Setzer Gabbiani

No, no, that's drooping.

^.~

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~This sig was pimped by Icon's sig~
Cheer up Emo kids.

I think Jin vs. Vyse would be a lot closer than some would think... Fighters are a bit more popular on the site than some would expect, as Scorpion and Ryu have shown. Still, I'd pick Vyse. We already have the stats showing Vyse doing better on Sonic than Jin would (probably... stats HAVE been off this year), and I can't see Jin as being that close to Scorpion.

But I suppose Vyse could have dropped. Hazuki, another Dreamcast cult character (granted, he didn't have the GCN release, but that's been out for a while in Skies's case) dropped from 2k2 to the later years. That's not great evidence, seeing how strange the stats were in 2k2 to other years, but I still wouldn't be surprised at all to see a character like Vyse drop.

Perhaps we should establish the line of what is "fodder" and what isn't at a specific percent rather than a character.
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I can't think of anything to put here, but I can't just leave it blank, can I?