therealmnm, you got a point there, Aeris might be much more well liked among the casuals that what this board suggests.

Her ability to SFF Sora is a clear evidence of that.

---
Posts without a sig looks ugly, so I guess I need something here.

Well, that doesn't mean that a good number of FFVII fans didn't play the game, too. Heck, that was part of the appeal of Kingdom Hearts for them.

Still, Aeris does nothing at all that would make you like her more. If just being in the game does the trick, then we ought to get FFVII Cid in there. He's bound to be a powerhouse.
---
Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 1: (7) Geno

Still, Aeris does nothing at all that would make you like her more. If just being in the game does the trick, then we ought to get FFVII Cid in there. He's bound to be a powerhouse.

I think the one thing that does the trick is major FF VII chars being there, not necessarily Aeris herself, prompting non-FF fans to check out FF VII.

So any boost associated with KH should apply to Tifa as well.

But, looking at the demography KH is aimed at, I'd say Aeris would benefit much more than Tifa.

---
Posts without a sig looks ugly, so I guess I need something here.

so what about KH2 when it comes will it boost the chars as much as kh or will the effects be unnoticed
---
Kilroy:There fate will be in each other's hands as they decide whether to share or to shaft

If anything, Sora/Aeris ought to scare people about Vincent VS Terra (if she beats Dante)/Magus/Squall; Vincent is arguably stronger than Aeris (though still debatable), and FF7 > FF6/CT/FF8/KH. They also share much of the same fanbases. If Aeris could do that much damage to the lead of KH, then it's not all that farfetched that Vincent could do something similar (note: not AS strong as Aeris did, necessarily) to the lead of FF6, the lead of FF8, or the "villain" of CT.
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

If Kingdom Hearts was supposed to introduce a NEW fanbase, then why was Sora SFFed so bad?

Replace KH with SSB, Sora with Ness, and Aeris with Bowser...
---
SC2K5 bracket: Samus over Snake, Crono over Megaman, Samus over Crono; Link over Sephiroth

What exactly is going on with www.sc2k5.com? Will it be back up before the contest starts? (Please...)

///
*Has KOS-MOS > Luigi*

Well, that doesn't mean that a good number of FFVII fans didn't play the game, too.

You activated my trap card!

Seriously though, that was one of the implied points of my post.
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Replace KH with SSB, Sora with Ness, and Aeris with Bowser...

But people didn't start out playing NESS'S game. These are supposed to be NEW FF fans playing Kingdom Hearts right? You would expect the majority of them to decide that they like Aeris better if they were Kingdom Hearts fans first?

Most people that played SSB and then Earthbound were already huge Nintendo fans, so they already were familiar with and fans of the Nintendo powerhouses BEFORE they played Earthbound. With Sora and Kingdom Hearts, it's backwards....
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

You would expect the majority of them to decide that they like Aeris better if they were Kingdom Hearts fans first?

I'd think so, since Sora doesn't seem to rock my boat at all.
---
SC2K5 Elite Eight: Mario, Frog, Snake, Tidus, Crono, Knuckles, Sonic, Ocelot

Sora isn't really the most likeable guy in the world.
---
Squall Leonhart's Road to the Summer Contest 2005 Championship
Round 1: (7) Geno

If anything, Sora/Aeris ought to scare people about Vincent VS Terra (if she beats Dante)/Magus/Squall; Vincent is arguably stronger than Aeris (though still debatable), and FF7 > FF6/CT/FF8/KH. They also share much of the same fanbases. If Aeris could do that much damage to the lead of KH, then it's not all that farfetched that Vincent could do something similar (note: not AS strong as Aeris did, necessarily) to the lead of FF6, the lead of FF8, or the "villain" of CT.

Ah yes, the force is strong in this one. I see I raise my children well.

Seriously though, if Vincent were to beat Magus, that would be the sole reason why. Of course it wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the degree to Aeris/Sora, as both Vincent and Magus are huge fan favorites. But FF7's strength is a big reason why I'm taking a reach for Vincent winning his division (and I don't even like Vincent, so this isn't favoritism influencing my decision). Final Fantasy 7 IS the cornerstone of this site. It may very well backfire, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Now SQUALL vs. Magus is another story entirely. It's not even proven that FF8 is more popular than Chrono Trigger. ...
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

New School (FFVII and Later) Square:
(Or, "I Promise This Isn't As Long As Luigi")

CLOUD STRIFE:
Extrapolated values:
2k2 42.99%
2k3 51.67%
2k4 51.67%

Year to year changes:
2k2-3 +8.68% (120.19% of 2k2 value)
2k3-4 0.00% (100.00% of 2k3 value)

Cloud's 2k2 number is merely a guess, and probably a bit too high. Nonetheless, Cloud benefited hugely from what has become known as KHF, and he stayed extremely competitive in 2k4. He is a true testament to the strength of new school Square.

SEPHIROTH:
Extrapolated values:
2k2 39.08%
2k3 49.71%
2k4 46.56%
Sp2k5 42.48%

Year to year changes:
2k2-2k3 +10.63% (127.20% of 2k2 value)
2k3-4 -3.15% (93.66% of 2k3 value)
2k4-2k5 4.08% (91.24% of 2k4 value)

Sephiroth's 2k2 number is also a guess, based on WDF. Regardless, Sephiroth is both the most dramatic example of KHF, as well as the one who has fallen the most since 2k3. Sephiroth gives evidence that Square characters might be in trouble.

AURON:

I'm not even going to bother posting Auron's numbers, because we don't know where he was in 2k3 and we don't know where he was in 2k4. Thanks, Cloud and Sephiroth!

AERIS GAINSBOROUGH:
Extrapolated values:
2k2 29.74%
2k3 32.81%

Year to year changes:
2k2-2k3 +3.07% (110.32% of 2k2 value)

Aeris benefited from the KHF, though less so than most other returning members. It's a pity that we didn't get to see how she changed in 2k4.

TIDUS:
Extrapolated values:
2k2 30.47%
2k3 34.25%
2k4 27.19%

Year to year changes:
2k2-3 +3.78% (112.41%)
2k3-4 -7.06% (79.39%)

Tidus, Tidus, Tidus. He saw the same 2k3 Square increase, very similar to Aeris' (fitting, as they where both extremely minor characters in the actual game). Then 2k4 came around, and Tidus completely bombed against Mega Man, who in turn completely (blue) bombed against Link. SFF in Link/Mega Man is a bleh idea, but still possible. SFF in Mega Man/Tidus? Eh? Tidus could be higher than 27.19% (hello, Shadow!), or he could be lower (hello, fully adjusted Mega Man!), but there's no question that he fell.
---
"The strong men take everything and the weak men die." ~ Luca Blight, Suikoden II

SORA:

Like Auron, I'm not going to bother posting numbers, because we only have one accurate year on him, and I'm trying to examine year to year differences. Thanks, Aeris!

VIVI:

He only has one year under his belt, and, though he proved to be fairly strong, he's useless to me here.

SQUALL LEONHART:
Extrapolated values:
2k2 23.66%
2k3 31.72%
2k4 31.72%

Year to year changes:
2k2-3 +8.06% (134.07%)
2k3-4 0.00% (100.00%)

Squall is another interesting case. There is reason to believe he was even stronger in 2k3, making him by far the most dramatic case of KHF (sorry, Sephiroth). At first glance, he retains that strength in 2k4. Why? Because we gave it to him. Despite the fact that he underperformed on both Bomberman and Kirby. In fact, his extrapolated value/change from 2k3/% of 2k3 looks like these:
Through Kirby: 29.37% -2.35% 92.59%
Through Bomberman: 27.79% -3.93% 87.61%
Do I think that Squall is that weak? No. Do I think he's weaker than he was in 2k3? Absolutely.

YUNA, ANSEM, SIN, KUJA

Only one contest, useless to me, etc. Just take note of how weak these FF/KH villains were: the only one to make it out of the first round only managed 55% on CATS, and the other two would be beaten by CATS, according to the XS.

CONCLUSION:

There are four new school Square characters that we can compare across at least three years. All four of them (plus Aeris), gained significantly in 2k3. Two of them (Sephiroth, Tidus) have dropped significantly since then, another (Squall) is likely to have fallen, and the strongest (Cloud) stayed constant. I think there's a fair amount of evidence pointing to new school Square slipping. Now, do I think that Squall is going to be jobbing to Snake again anytime soon? Of course not. Could Advent Children and/or Kingdom Hearts II create the same effect that Kingdom Hearts did? Certainly. But they aren't out yet, and, until they are, I'm not giving new school Square the benefit of the doubt.
---
"The strong men take everything and the weak men die." ~ Luca Blight, Suikoden II

CT > FF8. Of course, it's not proven yet...but there's not much of any chance that it's the other way around. What makes that one temptin' though is, when broken down, looks like this:

The "villain" of an old-Square game VS The lead of a new-Square game

Squall also has two (maybe three?) games to draw from in this case, too, so that might help him out.


Back to Vincent though, odds are he won't face Squall...if new-Square really does have an advantage over old-Square, even if it's minimally, then that's another thing Vincent has going for him against Magus and Terra.
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

I always thought that a big reason for Squall's increase from 2002 to 2003 was the 84% prediction percentage for Snake. Sure there were less brackets entered, but there also were far less votes in 2002.
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

I've begun to think something about Solid for awhile, but I haven't done the looking to see if it holds any merit or not: is it possible that a load of Solid's strength could come from bracket-voting?
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

I don't have anything useful to say, so... *tag for now*
---
"Thank you, Mario. But our princess is in another castle."
-Toad in Super Mario Bros.

Only 50% had Solid Snake over Frog IIRC.
---
SC2K5 Elite Eight: Mario, Frog, Snake, Tidus, Crono, Knuckles, Sonic, Ocelot

And only 22.56% had Frog over Master Chief, so the majority of people that were bracket voting had either Snake or Master Chief.
---
"The strong men take everything and the weak men die." ~ Luca Blight, Suikoden II

2k4 was also the worst year for people predicting Solid to get out of his four-pack (or rather, beat Knuckles), despite a Gamecube remake of MGS being released not long before the contest started. I'd have to check alot more details before I say anything for certain, but I wouldn't dismiss bracket-voting when it comes to Solid.

*looks at the tough-ass road ahead of him this year* Yeesh.....
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

There aren't enough brackets to make it terribly significant. Let alone people who are only voting for him because he is IN said brackets.
---
Festivus

I will always maintain that bracket voting is significant, and that any model relying on transitivity should attempt to remove bracket votes first.
---
Think fast. Click faster.

There aren't enough brackets to make it terribly significant. Let alone people who are only voting for him because he is IN said brackets.

That's what makes me cautious about stating this as fact...but I've begun to think that Solid, for whatever reason, gets more people to bracket-vote for him than other characters. Of course, again, I need more information first...

...and I'll start with asking this: how many brackets total were submitted each year in each contest?
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

HaRRicH, I don't know the exact number, but it's not hard to find. In the contest stats under the Features section, you can see the percentage of brackets correct for a match and also the number of correct brackets, so it only takes simple math.
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

40K spring 2004, 33K SC2004, 22K Spring 2005.
---
SC2K5 Elite Eight: Mario, Frog, Snake, Tidus, Crono, Knuckles, Sonic, Ocelot

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/07/10/1924256.shtml?tid=169&tid=8

That explains why SC2k5.com is down.
---
"The strong men take everything and the weak men die." ~ Luca Blight, Suikoden II

Appreciate it, the both of ya. I wasn't needin' exact numbers, anyways.

I'll probably try to draw a conclusion on my theory by the end of the night.
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

I've begun to think something about Solid for awhile, but I haven't done the looking to see if it holds any merit or not: is it possible that a load of Solid's strength could come from bracket-voting?

I've used this thinking in a number of my predictions before. You NEVER see how a character will truly perform until you see them in a close match. It might not be their OVERALL popularity, but for contest prediction you HAVE to take that into affect, whether it be vote rallying, etc. In Snake's closest match, Frog did SIGNIFICANTLY better than anyone thought he would. It makes you wonder about Snake's ability to hold up in a close match.

It's a large reason why I take Bowser over Ryu and Snake. Ryu may be consistent in this contest, but he hasn't been challenged at ALL in this contest. It's either win or lose for him. But can you see loads of vote rallying for Ryu? Could you see the same thing for Bowser? Same thing with Snake. He may be generally liked, but I don't see a lot of people vote rallying for him if he were in a close match.
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

am i the only one who keeps thinking sora is a girl just because of the name? i mean when i see his pic i know he is male but his name is a girl's name .
---
Kilroy:There fate will be in each other's hands as they decide whether to share or to shaft

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/contest/c03sumbracket.html

No wonder why Bowser got 40% on Sephiroth this Spring; look how well Mario did. =)

am i the only one who keeps thinking sora is a girl just because of the name? i mean when i see his pic i know he is male but his name is a girl's name .

I still wanna call Sora a girl...neither the name NOR the pics help.
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

For what it's worth, MGS pulled out a tight one against FFT.
---
Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

If it wasn't for Aeris, Cloud will think he's Zack all the way till the end of the game.

Umm... I think you mean Tifa.

Aeris might be much more well liked among the casuals that what this board suggests.

No. Just no. Read what I said. Everywhere I've gone, people who have voiced their opinions have liked Tifa more, and by a good margin. So, unless Aeris' fans choose to remain silent for whatever reason, the natural assumption is that Tifa's better liked that everyone, including "casuals".


It makes absolutely no sense for Aeris to be more popular. Other than the spoiler, she has absolutely nothing going for her. Tifa is more beautiful, more important to the story, playing a bigger part and she even leads the party for a while. Not to mention she gets Cloud out of some deep ****. Casual or not, fanboy or not, you're bound to like Tifa more. Not true for everyone, of course, but true for most.
---
*** Support Tifa Lockheart in the Summer Contest 2005 ***
Thanks to everyone who helped her get in!

I just switched my pick to Vivi, and here's why: Vivi got 29.75% on Sephiroth. In the same year, Auron got 32.3% on Sephiroth. Of course, they were both SFF'ed, but probably to very similar degrees, since they are both Final Fantasy characters from about the same generation (late PS1 FF versus early PS2 FF). If we assume that they were SFF'ed by the same amount, then Vivi would be expected to get 46.05% against Auron. Do you think Zelda would get that much against Auron? The answer isn't clear-cut, but I'd say she wouldn't get more than about 44-45% tops.
---
For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to refer to Gordon Freeman versus Tanner as Schrodinger's Match. -Phoenix Flattener

that=by
---
*** Support Tifa Lockheart in the Summer Contest 2005 ***
Thanks to everyone who helped her get in!

Who knows if FFT was supposed to be that strong in the first place? =P
---
Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Auron = Magus

---
A E I OWN U

It makes absolutely no sense for Aeris to be more popular. Other than the spoiler, she has absolutely nothing going for her. Tifa is more beautiful, more important to the story, playing a bigger part and she even leads the party for a while. Not to mention she gets Cloud out of some deep ****. Casual or not, fanboy or not, you're bound to like Tifa more. Not true for everyone, of course, but true for most.

In reality, that's the ONLY thing that she actually has going for her. I don't think her large breasts are enough to counteract the power of the spoiler. And I think you are kind of blinded by your infatuation for her.
---
"Heil Dweebenheimer!"
MasterMage119

*tag*

Only one more week!

---
RIP: Tnote827 - 4/4/2005
Sp2k5 - 77/80 (stupid Master Hand)

Believe me, whichever board I've gone to on GameFAQs and whichever gaming site I've visited, I've found Tifa to be more popular, AND by a good margin. In the recent match of theirs in Leon's contest, Tifa more than doubled Aeris.

Tifa > Aeris > Vincent. And this post of Vlado's that I just quoted is 100% true. People have seriously stopped caring about Aeris.

~*ST*~
---
Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

am i the only one who keeps thinking sora is a girl just because of the name?

The name reminds me of the girl from Digimon, so yeah >_>
---
The King of all Cosmos' route to summer victory:
Round 1: (4) Tidus... LET ME DREAM :

We'll see who's blinded when she kicks Luigi's ass.

Anyway, why don't you try explaining how Aeris would be more popular instead of just saying I'm wrong?
---
*** Support Tifa Lockheart in the Summer Contest 2005 ***
Thanks to everyone who helped her get in!

Has there been any debate on Kefka/Vercetti? This match is giving me a headache.

---
A E I OWN U

Aeris not even making the bracket this year say alot. The spoiler got played out.

---
A E I OWN U

And enough with the breasts bull****. "Tifa has big breasts, let's make fun of her for it!" Not original since 1997. She's more beautiful with or without having big breasts, that doesn't matter at all to me.
---
*** Support Tifa Lockheart in the Summer Contest 2005 ***
Thanks to everyone who helped her get in!

*FF7 Spoilers*


Fine. In all reality, the most memorable part of FF7 is that stupid spoiler. Sure, Tifa had some importance to the story, but the thing most people remember about her is that she was very top heavy. And to say Tifa was more important than Aeris? Now, I don't remember the story THAT well, as I haven't played it in a year or so, but wasn't Aeris the one involved with getting that white materia thing? And she was an ancient, right? The only thing I really remember about Tifa, story-wise, was that sequence with Cloud in that dreamworld or something... And I barely remember that. Tifa just wasn't as memorable overall as Aeris, mostly because of the whole death thing really. I mean, niether of them had great personalities, and I didn't really like either of them. But Aeris just steals all of Tifa's thunder with that one scene.
---
"Heil Dweebenheimer!"
MasterMage119

Has there been any debate on Kefka/Vercetti? This match is giving me a headache.

Good point... It's one of the two or so matches I consider hardest at this point.
---
*** Support Tifa Lockheart in the Summer Contest 2005 ***
Thanks to everyone who helped her get in!

And enough with the breasts bull****. "Tifa has big breasts, let's make fun of her for it!" Not original since 1997. She's more beautiful with or without having big breasts, that doesn't matter at all to me.

I wasn't making fun of her smart ass, I was saying for most people, that's the memorable thing about her. Maybe YOU have some sort of insane love for her, as best I remember, cliché personality, but I sure as hell don't, and I doubt many do. The biggest thing about her personality was some stupid love for Cloud.
---
"Heil Dweebenheimer!"
MasterMage119

Has there been any debate on Kefka/Vercetti? This match is giving me a headache.

There has been a lot. And without much consensus. Personally, I have Kefka.
---
"Heil Dweebenheimer!"
MasterMage119

There really isn't much to debate on... Vercetti is statistically higher... barely, but he isn't a good character to rely entirely on statistics for... hence uncertainty. Just be glad it's in round 1.
---
Festivus