To break away from the discussion on Terra for a second, where does everyone expect Cecil to end up?

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

Kefka beat Wesker by as much as he was predicted to beat Luca according to the 2k4 stats.

*coughmaguscough* <.<

---
“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

she is in a more popular game than all of them, minus Cloud

We don't know about FFVIII's popularity here because it wasn't in the 2004 Spring Contest. It could very well be more popular than VI.
---
Spring Contest 2005 - 68/80 points
"Not even death can save you from me" - Diablo

Cecil = Ramza 2.0

That should answer your question.
---
Moltar's Comics - http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/Moltar
SC2K5: Samus is going all the way!

What that Magus is overestimated by the SFF which Ganon basically shot a hole through or you implying SFF between two characters who are made by two different companies and not in the same generation.
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"Why would the boost from AC be bigger than those?" - Mac Arrowny
"Because (Heroic Mario) just replayed Final Fantasy VII." - Lucid Faia

We don't know about FFVIII's popularity here because it wasn't in the 2004 Spring Contest. It could very well be more popular than VI.

Eh, we could always play the "What if" game, but I definitely have my doubts on that one. The odds of FFVIII being more popular than FFVI would remain unlikely. More popular than FFX? Sure, I could see that -- doesn't mean I agree. But being more popular than FFVI would mean it's on par with Chrono Trigger, Super Mario Bros. 3, etc. I love FFVIII but that is pushing it.

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

What that Magus is overestimated by the SFF which Ganon basically shot a hole through or you implying SFF between two characters who are made by two different companies and not in the same generation.

Or I am implying that Magus should not have been given his 2003 value like that. Luca Blight isn't the only one who that affects, Sam Fisher also runs into a sticky situation by being measured through Magus. He ends up taking a ridiculous fall, despite having a new game. So I am implying that Magus is not as strong as the stats say he is. However, that is not the most popular idea around here, obviously.

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

From: Tatsumaki Senpuu | Posted: 7/6/2005 10:11:53 PM | Message Detail
To break away from the discussion on Terra for a second, where does everyone expect Cecil to end up?

Cecil will be a bit below Ramza.
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Spring Contest 2005 - 68/80 points
"Not even death can save you from me" - Diablo

That should answer your question.

Yes, it does. I could actually see him being around there, maybe a little higher.

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

Why Magus will Defeat Squall:

Heroic Mario is supporting Squall.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

Lara took the exact same fall. Samus overperformed againist both.
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"Why would the boost from AC be bigger than those?" - Mac Arrowny
"Because (Heroic Mario) just replayed Final Fantasy VII." - Lucid Faia

I more or less agree with the Yuna/Kefka/Ramza area, perhaps a bit lower. Cecil is my favorite Final Fantasy lead, but I'm guessing IV is too outdated for the majority of this site.
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"I have ambitions beyond becoming a god, you know." ~ Lezard Valeth, Valkyrie Profile

Heroic Mario is supporting Squall.

Meanie. ;_;

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

I know FAQs and what not don't have anything to do with it, but judging from how many FAQs are for the game (not even a Boss FAQ, which I find to be rather shocking) and the number of reviews in comparison to other Final Fantasy games, I would be inclined to agree with the idea that it doesn't have as much appeal.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=1573

That poll also tends to hurt. =\

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“Yeah, sure. I always see it. But… who cares? I speak with passion, from the heart! That’s what matters most.”
Laguna Loire

Everytime I look at that poll, I become more and more sure that most people voting III meant VI. I mean come on III the only game not released in America and isnt exactly beloved by all who play it.
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"Why would the boost from AC be bigger than those?" - Mac Arrowny
"Because (Heroic Mario) just replayed Final Fantasy VII." - Lucid Faia

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=1573

I find that poll rather surprising in a couple of ways. First of all, 686 people need to be shot, unless they thought II was 2e. Second of all, I like Onion Kids and all, but I'm guessing there were quite a few people who confused III with 3e. Thirdly, "none" is the third most popular option from arguably the most popular series on the site? Finally, that looks like it holds up rather well for a multioption poll (the VII > VI > X >= VIII, anyway), which isn't usually the case.
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"I have ambitions beyond becoming a god, you know." ~ Lezard Valeth, Valkyrie Profile

http://www.freewebs.com/mmxcalibur/thekingofallcosmos.htm

I'm aware that he doesn't exactly deserve a bio yet, but I couldn't resist. Katamari Damacy is similar to Super Metroid in that I love with each new replay.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

Sam and Lara both over-performed on their opponents in 2003, whether it be by bracket voting or the higher vote totals, they over-performed.

Redo the matches, and Sam would look much worse on Magus, and Lara would look much worse on Zelda.
---
Moltar's Comics - http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/Moltar
SC2K5: Samus is going all the way!

http://www.freewebs.com/mmxcalibur/thekingofallcosmos.htm

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
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SpC2k5 FINAL SCORE: 72/80
*is Janus5000*

Finally, that looks like it holds up rather well for a multioption poll (the VII > VI > X >= VIII, anyway), which isn't usually the case.

I tend to think that FF polls hold up generally better than many contest-usable polls. While there are exceptions (Rikku > Tidus and afew others), they're not a bad thing to use as long as you know how to find the occasional bull.
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Serious Reminder: Vote for Knuckles
Serious Reminder: Vote for Tifa Lockheart, too

Janus, send me an e-mail.

~*ST*~
---
Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to be destroyed... I must simply laugh!" -Magus

Terra has a severe lack of screen time in the second third of the WoB, though...

Not as big a lack as Crono had after the Ocean Palace, and he's still strong. Even if you only give her 35% on Crono (before SFF), that's still enough to demolish Dante. I can't see her being much further from Crono than that.

Something that may be of interest. Vercetti managed to beat CJ in IGN's Battle of the Badasses.
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/629/629401p3.html
IGN and GameFAQs aren't that similar, but I would say this result has at least a good chance at holding on both sites. Ness' shot at CJ might be quite a bit better than many people realize.
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"Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts..."
"All dreams are but another reality. Never forget..."

Yeah, but that's the sort of thing we'd expect in a direct match between the two, so that doesn't mean too much anyway. We've known about SFF since DK vs. Mario, after all, and it shoudn't be shocking that IF those results translated well to GF that we'd have to account for some SFF.
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Yoblazer just kicked my ass!

And now that I've looked at it, it's rather close. If the results did translate well I'd say Ness still has the disadvantage that we've all been expecting him to have.
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Yoblazer just kicked my ass!

What the hell? This is getting ridiculous. Since when was a POPULARITY contest based more on how popular a game is or who the main character is than how popular the character actually is. I don't care how popular FFVI is, you can't tell me that Terra draws the same casual appeal as Cloud, Crono, Squall, or even Tidus or Auron. Sure fans of FFVI will vote for her, but that won't necessarily get her by. And it's not like people DON'T like Dante as well.

Taking a step away from all of the hero/villain and main character arguments for Terra, there are other reasons to be considered. Cloud, Crono, and Squall aren't strong strictly because of their prominence in their games or because their games are popular. They are popular because of their casual appeal as well. That's something that I don't believe Terra will get a lot of. I mean look at Yuna. She may not be the main character of FFX, but the story DOES revolve around her a lot and she's just as prominent in her game as Terra is in FFVI. They are kind of similar in character as well. Yet Yuna is nowhere near being a powerhouse. And it's not like FFX is significantly less popular than FFVI. But yet nobody has brought that up yet. People think it's better to compare Terra to the Clouds and Cronos of the world.

And as for the hero/villain relationship, it's not like we have a lot of data to look at. We know exactly WHY each of those relationships are as such. APPEAL... how much a person is actually liked... remember those? It doesn't matter that Sephiroth is a villain. He's insanely popular no matter how you look at it. But he's an exception right? All of the other hero/villain relationships have a gap. But again, we're just looking at numbers and not looking at WHY they are so.

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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Cloud, Crono, and Squall aren't strong strictly because of their prominence in their games or because their games are popular. They are popular because of their casual appeal as well. That's something that I don't believe Terra will get a lot of.

Forgot about Tidus? Terra has way more casual appeal than he does, and is from a stronger game.

*continued*

People like to use Kuja and Sin to verify that nobody cares about FF villains other than Sephiroth. I look at Kuja and I see that he performed worse than RAMIREZ. Now FFIX isn't exactly obscure. It may not be as popular as FFVII or FFVI, but it still was a major FF game that still sold a lot. Yet a lesser known game had an even lesser known villain that did better than Kuja. Could it be that Ramirez is actually LIKED more than Kuja? I know I'm stretching this argument, but I still wanted to bring up another perspective to look at. Kefka was able to do significantly better than Kuja. FFVI isn't THAT much more known than FFIX. It may be more popular, but that just leads up to my point. My point? Kefka actually does have his share of fans. He just doesn't have the appeal of a Sephiroth or Magus. Automatically assuming that Terra should be a great deal stronger than Kefka may not be the way to go. Especially when SHE doesn't draw the same appeal as the other popular Square leads.

Of course, once again I'm HOPING that Terra beats Dante and is a contest force. FFVI is at the near top of my favorites games list. But I just don't agree with people automatically assuming Terra will be at a set strength just because other Square leads are strong. You have to sit back and think about why the most popular characters ARE so popular.

Anyways, I haven't posted in a while. People rarely comment on what I have to say anyways. I just wanted to get my point across, as there were a bunch of posts in this topic I didn't agree with. I wanted to give a look from another perspective.
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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

Forgot about Tidus? Terra has way more casual appeal than he does, and is from a stronger game.

Since when does Terra have more casual appeal than Tidus? Tidus is no Cloud, but people still like him. Or now you think that Terra will be at Tidus's strength? That's a different argument entirely. In terms of appeal, Terra is more similar to Yuna than Tidus if you want to bring that up. I'm not saying that people don't like Terra by the way. I'm just bringing up characters that we know about for comparison.
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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

"Since when was a POPULARITY contest based more on how popular a game is or who the main character "

Be it direct or not there has always been a correlation between those things you mentioned and the popularity of a character. To say there isn't goes against most of what we've seen in these contests.

"They are popular because of their casual appeal as well."

Are you trying to say that casual appeal isn't influenced at all by the popularity of the game or the prominence of the character? If you are I think you're trying to make it into a factor that it isn't, a sort of "cool" factor. yes, Terra loses out on that compared to some others, but if cool factor were as relevant as you seem to be pushing I'd have made my bracket quite differently.

"People think it's better to compare Terra to the Clouds and Cronos of the world."

Do you think it's fair to compare Terra to Tidus, then? If so be careful about who you chose in that match as we all know Tidus could very well take Dante.

"And as for the hero/villain relationship, it's not like we have a lot of data to look at."

But all the data points one way, and if Terra fails to be above Kefka it'd be the first piece of evidence against it.

"We know exactly WHY each of those relationships are as such. APPEAL..."

The why isn't Sephiroth over Cloud? Or better yet (thinking like the board here) why isn't Magus over Crono?

"But he's an exception right? All of the other hero/villain relationships have a gap."

So you're conceeding that your arguments are pointless, since the villain you pointed out as being the most appealing still loses to his hero.

"But again, we're just looking at numbers and not looking at WHY they are so. "

Of course we look at why, we also like to take into consideration hard numbers as well. This is a stats topic, and numbers are much easier to track than intangibles. It's not like we're saying that Terra is certain to hit the mid-30s here (which she'd have to easily do if the only thing we considered was FF7:FF6)
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Yoblazer just kicked my ass!

I don't care how popular FFVI is, you can't tell me that Terra draws the same casual appeal as Cloud, Crono, Squall, or even Tidus or Auron. Sure fans of FFVI will vote for her, but that won't necessarily get her by. And it's not like people DON'T like Dante as well.

Terra wouldn't need nearly the level of support that Cloud or Crono get to beat Dante. FF8 wasn't in the Spring contest, Auron is always behind SFF and Tidus hasn't shown himself to be very consistant so I can't comment on those examples. Crono has a game of similar strength to FF3/6 and is projected to double Dante. That's quite a bit of room to compensate for lower support.

Cloud, Crono, and Squall aren't strong strictly because of their prominence in their games or because their games are popular. They are popular because of their casual appeal as well. That's something that I don't believe Terra will get a lot of.

Terra uses a swords. Terra uses magic. It's not everything, but it certainly helps.

And as for the hero/villain relationship, it's not like we have a lot of data to look at. We know exactly WHY each of those relationships are as such. APPEAL... how much a person is actually liked... remember those? It doesn't matter that Sephiroth is a villain. He's insanely popular no matter how you look at it. But he's an exception right? All of the other hero/villain relationships have a gap. But again, we're just looking at numbers and not looking at WHY they are so.

Exactly. Kefka has next to no casual appeal. Even a good picture of him is pretty bad. Terra has swords, magic, as on commented by previous posters is fairly attractive and she's "tied" for being main character of the game. Terra should have no problems being much stronger than Kefka and above Dante.
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"Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts..."
"All dreams are but another reality. Never forget..."

Something that may be of interest. Vercetti managed to beat CJ in IGN's Battle of the Badasses.
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/629/629401p3.html
IGN and GameFAQs aren't that similar, but I would say this result has at least a good chance at holding on both sites. Ness' shot at CJ might be quite a bit better than many people realize.

Interesting. Too bad we don't have the vote totals for that. Although I'm surprised that Kain took down KOS-MOS with over 60%, and I'm DISGUSTED that Goku actually made the Final Four....
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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

People like to use Kuja and Sin to verify that nobody cares about FF villains other than Sephiroth.

People like to use the Villians contest to verify that for the most part nobody really cares about the villians, not just FF ones. The rankings plummet after Bowser.

I look at Kuja and I see that he performed worse than RAMIREZ. Now FFIX isn't exactly obscure. It may not be as popular as FFVII or FFVI, but it still was a major FF game that still sold a lot. Yet a lesser known game had an even lesser known villain that did better than Kuja. Could it be that Ramirez is actually LIKED more than Kuja? I know I'm stretching this argument, but I still wanted to bring up another perspective to look at.

Vyse is projected to get 64% on Ramirez. Even for non-ff villians, the gap between hero and villian tends to be large.

Kefka was able to do significantly better than Kuja. FFVI isn't THAT much more known than FFIX.

The only data we have on FF9 is Vivi and Kuja. Vivi did very well, Kuja did very poorly. You can't draw anything conclusive from that. Vivi could be a fluke and FF9 is ver weak or Kuja is a fluke and FF9 is very strong or FF9 is some place in between.

But I just don't agree with people automatically assuming Terra will be at a set strength just because other Square leads are strong. You have to sit back and think about why the most popular characters ARE so popular.

It isn't an automatic assumption. It's simply the conclusion we come to after analzing the information we have and past trends in the contest.
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"Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts..."
"All dreams are but another reality. Never forget..."

Good. Somebody responded! :) I'm kinda bad on getting my thoughts across, so with somebody commenting on my thoughts, I can get my points across better.

Be it direct or not there has always been a correlation between those things you mentioned and the popularity of a character. To say there isn't goes against most of what we've seen in these contests.

I never said there wasn't a correlation. I was just saying it looks like people are putting more into stock into those things into actually thinking about how well a character is actually liked. I know those things DO play a factor in that very thing, but I'm just saying that it looks like people are putting TOO much into those factors over looking at who each individual character is.

Are you trying to say that casual appeal isn't influenced at all by the popularity of the game or the prominence of the character? If you are I think you're trying to make it into a factor that it isn't, a sort of "cool" factor. yes, Terra loses out on that compared to some others, but if cool factor were as relevant as you seem to be pushing I'd have made my bracket quite differently.

Oh no... Like I said, I never said popularity of the game or prominence DOESN'T influence casual appeal. I just said there are other things that factor in as well. I was just putting more focus on those other things. If you want to call it the "cool" factor you can. I was just pointing out that there were more factors that should be considered also.

Do you think it's fair to compare Terra to Tidus, then? If so be careful about who you chose in that match as we all know Tidus could very well take Dante.

I explained what I think of that in the next post. I think she's more comparable to Yuna although I personally like Terra MUCH, much more. I'm just saying what I think the outcome is. Of course, if more people think like me and like Terra that much more, then all the better! <3

But all the data points one way, and if Terra fails to be above Kefka it'd be the first piece of evidence against it.

Again, I was just pointing out that it doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen. My whole post was to point out a different perspective. I was being extreme with my points on purpose. I know you've written persuasive essays before. ;) All of my points probably won't nearly play as much of a factor as I make them out to be.

The why isn't Sephiroth over Cloud? Or better yet (thinking like the board here) why isn't Magus over Crono?

I never said that hero/villain didn't play a factor at all. Again, I was just stating the other side of the argument. Of course Crono and Cloud are more popular for obvious reasons. I never said Terra WOULDN'T benefit from the same types of thing. I just don't think it will be to the same degree.

"But he's an exception right? All of the other hero/villain relationships have a gap."

So you're conceeding that your arguments are pointless, since the villain you pointed out as being the most appealing still loses to his hero.

Persuasive essays, remember? That part was acknowledging the other side. I went on to explain another point right after that.

Of course we look at why, we also like to take into consideration hard numbers as well. This is a stats topic, and numbers are much easier to track than intangibles. It's not like we're saying that Terra is certain to hit the mid-30s here (which she'd have to easily do if the only thing we considered was FF7:FF6)

Okay, you got me. I meant to say looking at JUST numbers. Like I said, I was just commenting on the other side to the arguments that I have seen. I agree with a lot of people on Terra, just not to the same degree as others. Damn that was long....
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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

Kefka was able to do significantly better than Kuja. FFVI isn't THAT much more known than FFIX.

The only data we have on FF9 is Vivi and Kuja. Vivi did very well, Kuja did very poorly. You can't draw anything conclusive from that. Vivi could be a fluke and FF9 is ver weak or Kuja is a fluke and FF9 is very strong or FF9 is some place in between.

Oh, I wasn't talking about popularity there. I meant FFVI literally shouldn't be THAT much more WELL KNOWN than FFIX. Of course it's most likely more popular. But seeing that they are both major FF games, and seeing the gap between Kefka and Kuja, the purpose of my saying that was to point out that Kefka DOES have a good share of fans, so I don't think that the gap between him and Terra will be as much as some people make it out to be. In the end, it's just my opinion on the matter though.
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Graduation: April 30, 2005 "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, those that read binary and those that don't."

"I explained what I think of that in the next post."

I hadn't read your next post when I typed that, so there are a number of ideas that didn't come across to me when I responded.

"I agree with a lot of people on Terra, just not to the same degree as others."

I'm the same way, I don't give her enough credit to beat Dante but I agree with a lot of what is said about her. Easier to ignore those people though, since debating any point won't change their minds, especially when I agree with a number of their points.
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Yoblazer just kicked my ass!

How much is Crono projected to get on Sephiroth?

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A E I OWN U

From: Slowflake | Posted: 7/6/2005 10:57:58 PM | Message Detail | #281
Oh, and I'm saying I agree with the BOP everywhere, but that's assuming Vercetti's still ahead. I haven't checked, I'll do it when I wake up.
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SC2K5 bracket: Samus over Snake, Crono over Megaman, Samus over Crono; Link over Sephiroth

--
Are you trying to win? No upsets = Fail.
---
May 05 NPD Sales - PSP - 250k. DS - 57k.
PSP trumps DS by 4.38x in sales for the month of May.

Yeah, but it's still better than going with one I have little to no confidence in and will end up wrong regardless.
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SC2K5 bracket: Samus over Snake, Crono over Megaman, Samus over Crono; Link over Sephiroth

I have some wild upsets (Kratos over Diablo, Terra over Dante, KIrby over Tidus) that probably won't happen, but if they do, it will be unexpected and get you ahead of the pack (Sora over Ryu propelled me into the top 50 at one point). And if they don't happen, I only lose 1 or 2 points and the winner of this bracket probably won't be perfect.
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Weird Kirby Dude ~Board Hunter~
Every fanboy war degenerates to a flame war over whether each debater likes the Halo series or not. - Android21A

no one can have a wilder upset than me. i have big boss winning two rounds tidus and squall winning their divisions and mario winning it all.
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Kilroy:There fate will be in each other's hands as they decide whether to share or to shaft

Yeah, but I also get the upsets that DO happen wrong.
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SC2K5 bracket: Samus over Snake, Crono over Megaman, Samus over Crono; Link over Sephiroth

IGN and GameFAQs aren't that similar, but I would say this result has at least a good chance at holding on both sites. Ness' shot at CJ might be quite a bit better than many people realize.


Some people forget important things about Earthbound and Ness. It is cult. C.J. vs. Vercetti resulted in SFF, plus I don't even know how many people voted in that match. It could be just a few thousands to as much as 500,000 (which I doubt). Ness is cult. He was able to beat Jak because the Jak series didn't have a mainstream fanbase, but GTA does. CJ might only get around 59ish/60ish on Ness, but it is more than enough to send the kid packing.
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Supporter of Magus, Mario, Mega Man, and Kerrigan for sc2k5

Yeah Goku would beat Ryu on Gamefaqs :D

Goku, badass? That thing failed big time calling someone like him badass. Even Tidus is more badass than Goku.
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My biggest predictions: Mario over Samus, Alucard over Sora, Magus over Dante.

Yuck at Ryu losing.

But I'm voting Goku over Dante regardless. ;x
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SC2K5 Elite Eight: Mario, Frog, Snake, Tidus, Crono, Knuckles, Sonic, Ocelot

Janus, send me an e-mail.

Uh-oh...
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SpC2k5 FINAL SCORE: 72/80
*is Janus5000*

Er, the Jak games sold over a million copies in the US. It definitely has casual appeal but a little too casual for this site (if that makes sense.)

Most powerful video game character ever... it isn't KOS-MOS or Laharl.









It's the King Of All Cosmos, from Katamari Damacy. Can you name one other character that can accidentally destroy the universe, react to it relatively indifferently and call the whole experience fun?

Colette Brunel.
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That... was her final mission. And like a true soldier, she saw it through the end.
ZSB [aX]

so who is the unluckiest character as in will suffer the biggest blowout of the tournament? my bet is on joanna dark.
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Kilroy:There fate will be in each other's hands as they decide whether to share or to shaft