I think Diablo will beat Bison with the same percentage as he beat Ridley and then in a close one over Kefka. Diablo's tough, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to crown him top 20 until I see him in action against someone we can place on the x-stats. I think we have a decent enough gauge of Bison's strength (Ken) to make comparisons.

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http://speeddemosarchive.com/mzm.html

You know, I think Kefka is a bigger example of the Chrono Trigger Factor than anyone from CT is.

What's the Chrono Trigger factor?
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SC2K4 Oracle Ranking: 4th
Supporting CATS in the Spring Contest.

Well, I suppose we'll see if it comes to pass tomorrow. But I'm almost tempted in biting on the Spread Betting of greater than 63% for Diablo. Perhaps my initial thought of Ridley's strength wasn't wrong, but my idea that Diablo would be so weak. At any rate, I'm glad we don't have to wait long to figure it out.

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“Remember us, Executor. Remember what was done here today. May Adun watch over you.”
- Tassadar

But I'm almost tempted in biting on the Spread Betting of greater than 63% for Diablo.

Apparently, that spread was made with you in mind because few others are likely to bite on that.
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Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

Oh yeah, I saw the debate in the last topic. I have a lot of respect for you Phediuk, but your definition of cult is way off.

I'll go over all the traits of a cult game and see if they apply to Metroid.

Love-it-or-hate-it gameplay? Check.

That argument works for any game ever made.

Popular among hardcore gamers but virtually unknown to the mainstream crowd? Check.

All but two Metroid titles have sold over 1 million copies, and the other two (Zero Mission and Echoes) have sold 800k and 500k.

A long hiatus between games that led to fans begging the company to make a sequel for years on end? Check.

By that logic, Super Smash Brothers is a cult series.

Decent but not fantastic sales figures? Check.

A game needs to sell 500,000 copies to break even given current developmental costs. Only two games in the entire Metroid series have failed to at least double that figure, so calling the series' sales "decent" is an understatement.

One of the games is considered to be one the best games of all time among many who have played it, and is one of its system's most acclaimed games? Check.

That has nothing to do with how cult a series is, and if anything you're proving that Super Metroid brought the series into mainstream gaming culture.

By the way, the biggest spoiler in the history of gaming is the ending to the very first Metroid, with Aeris being a close second. If Metroid were a cult series, Metroid's ending wouldn't have hit gamers so hard in the first place.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

Well, yes, I know. Many didn't side with Lavos either when I did. It just seems to me like it's very possible to happen. And that I shouldn't have been so quick to assume that when Ridley lost, it was just because of his weakness and not Diablo's strength. Then again, at that point I still had a bracket to worry about trying to make look good. At this point, my bracket is at the point where I cannot win.

I mean, seriously, I would have never taken Bison over Ridley nor would I have taken Kefka over Ridley. Keeping that in mind, Diablo shouldn't have trouble beating either of them. And I'm suspecting that he's going to rank fairly high in the X-sts of an actual summer contest and rank behind Bowser, Ganon, and Sephiroth -- if Liquid's ranking turns out to be accurate then you could add another there... I suppose. Diablo's just so crazy to place. You can look at it and say that's too high, but at the same time it's certainly possible... for whatever reason.

---
“Remember us, Executor. Remember what was done here today. May Adun watch over you.”
- Tassadar

By the way, the biggest spoiler in the history of gaming is the ending to the very first Metroid, with Aeris being a close second. If Metroid were a cult series, Metroid's ending wouldn't have hit gamers so hard in the first place.

Yes! This man knows his stuff. <3

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“Remember us, Executor. Remember what was done here today. May Adun watch over you.”
- Tassadar

By the way, the biggest spoiler in the history of gaming is the ending to the very first Metroid, with Aeris being a close second.

Said it months ago/10. Still, I'm glad to see there are people who agree.

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"MyWorldIsSNES" Score: 24, Rank: 26 (T1), Pick: Kefka
My Video Game World Records: http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&p=35289

Aeris's death is a far second to the metroid larva of super metroid, as far as I'm concerned.

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http://speeddemosarchive.com/mzm.html

*Super Metroid spoilers*









By "Metroid larva" are you referring to the method with which Samus attains the Hyper Beam?








~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

I just cannot see Bison being weaker than Ridley.
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www.SC2K5.com

Bison will still win, fools! Mwahah!

I'm guessing it was the Lavos performance against Liquid, followed back to Mother Brain, followed back to Ridley, followed back to Diablo that made us all lose faith, right? I've got a few reasons why it's nearly as significant as one might think. (though there's a good chance it's just my Bison fanboyism coming through)

First of all, Mother Brain is not a weaker Ridley. She has name recognition and picture recognition advantage. That's a big factor for drawing in non-Metroid hardcore. (the majority of Ridley's votes, I'd assume)

Second of all, the "Solid ****" factor that people have already gone over, that makes Liquid overrated.

Thirdly, Lavos gets a recognition advantage from inner shell to outer shell pic. Mother Brain would've done worse if Lavos had the same pic in both rounds, I bet.

I'm thinking those infamous "chains of close matches" are fishy and jack up character's %age anyway. Take the Magus/Tidus/Ganondorf trio of SC2k3. Tidus dropped like a rock. We really couldn't tell about the other two because of the SFF but I wouldn't have been surprised to see both of them drop like a rock too. (though probably not as far as Tidus... stupid "X" SFF)

Liquid will under-perform against Sephiroth, and it will all be clear again. Here's the abbreviated version of what I just said if you don't want to read all of that.

1. Liquid is overrated by the SC2k4 stats. 2. Mother Brain is overrated because of Lavos's pic variance. 3. Mother Brain >= Ridley
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

The Last Metroid scene was cool, but not much of a spoiler. Certainly not in the same league as "Samus is a woman."

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"MyWorldIsSNES" Score: 24, Rank: 26 (T1), Pick: Kefka
My Video Game World Records: http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&p=35289

3. Mother Brain >= Ridley

Ludicrous.

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"MyWorldIsSNES" Score: 24, Rank: 26 (T1), Pick: Kefka
My Video Game World Records: http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&p=35289

*major FF7 spoilers*








Still, I'm glad to see there are people who agree.

You can't argue against a fact. Besides, even if you wanted to argue that Aeris is the biggest spoiler ever, I would simply point out the AERIS IS DEAD signs that were in game stores all across the country. You can't make a claim for the biggest spoiler ever when stores are advertising the damned thing as a selling point for the game, effectively killing the surprise.

No one saw the ending of Metroid coming. Nearly everyone knew what happened to Aeris before ever starting the game. That's the major difference.










~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

Apparently I missed the memo on the Aeris spoiler then.
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Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

yeah, the hyper beam one is the one I speak of; if someone finds that to be spoiler-ish I'll delete it. the squeal it lets out brings tears to my eyes.



..okay, maybe not, but it's still cooler than Aeris.


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http://speeddemosarchive.com/mzm.html

1. Liquid is overrated by the SC2k4 stats.

I'll give you that.

2. Mother Brain is overrated because of Lavos's pic variance.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

(STOP STEALING MY PHRASE, DUSTY; I USED THAT WAY BEFORE YOU >_>)

3. Mother Brain >= Ridley

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

My personal biggest spoiler is still

*SPOILERS*









that Zelda turned out to be Sheik.

I think I'm the only person who didn't notice.
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Current Match Prediction -- Kefka vs. Wesker
Spring 2005 Contest -- 23/24 points

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Coming from somebody who's argued about the so-called picture factor before, I don't see why you're so quick to shoot that down.
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Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

*spoilers everyone knows about*

heh, my friend was talking about FF7 once when I had just gotten it. he said "oh Aeris sucks, I just bought a weapon for her and she dies." I was like "well, there goes that game!"

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http://speeddemosarchive.com/mzm.html

Well, the FF7 spoiler was advertised, there were pics of it in the BradyGames player's guide, etc. The Metroid spoiler was completely unexpected, especially for it's time, and people actually thought Samus was a man, thanks to the instruction manual. The FF7 spoiler wasn't the first of it's kind, but it gets treated like it does because it was the first spoiler of it's kind for the younger FF7 fanbase at the time. Without the Metroid spoiler, there is no Jill Valentine, there is no Lara Croft, there is no badass female lead. "Samus is a female." It was definitely the biggest spoiler in gaming.

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"MyWorldIsSNES" Score: 24, Rank: 26 (T1), Pick: Kefka
My Video Game World Records: http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&p=35289

BradyGame's FFVII guide spoils the whole game (except for the ending), not just that one spoiler.
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Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

Without the Metroid spoiler, there is no Jill Valentine, there is no Lara Croft, there is no badass female lead. "Samus is a female." It was definitely the biggest spoiler in gaming.

I tried saying that to Vlado once, and he responded by saying that Tifa is the most influential female ever. Glad to see some gamers who know their history, Lucid.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

Don't get me wrong about the whole Lavos pic variation thing, I don't think it'd be huge but maybe Lavos would've gained 1-2% from it.

The Mother Brain >= Ridley thing... I figured this board would shun that for the most part, but I can't really see any reason why it wouldn't be. Ridley's got two more games, but Mother Brain's more significant in her games. And like I said, recognition. Recognition goes a long way, ask Master Hand.
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

Well, Tifa WAS a forerunner for the whole chicks with big jugs movement in video gaming. That's pretty influential, if you ask me.

...What?
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Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

My biggest spoiler is...

*ESB SPOILERS*












I am your father.

Hehehe, I remember being all like :O:O:O:O:O:O:O at that little revelation.

It isn't a game though >_>

<_<

In a game though? Uh...

I am most partial to Diablo II's conclusion... That was great. I don't mean the LoD conclusion, with the worldstone, but just classic Diablo II.

Badass. And the prediction % for Liquid's match is hilarious.
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"Akuma had a hadoken with fire too... and a hurricane kock"- FrostHarpy

Coming from somebody who's argued about the so-called picture factor before, I don't see why you're so quick to shoot that down.

My argument is that pictures matter when they're horribly imbalanced, with Pac Man vs Kefka 2003 being the best example. Lavos's first round picture was anything but imbalanced.

Now, had CJayC taken a picture of a tick, drew spikes on it in Photoshop and named his new pet Lavos, I would agree that there was picture variance for him.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

My argument is that pictures matter when they're horribly imbalanced, with Pac Man vs Kefka 2003 being the best example

No, it's not. Not even close. Pac-Man's picture sucked, too.
---
Hi,I'm partystar. ^_^
Or maybe I'm Leonhart. That's for you to decide.

I tried saying that to Vlado once, and he responded by saying that Tifa is the most influential female ever.

Tifa? More influential than Samus or Chun Li? XD

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"MyWorldIsSNES" Score: 24, Rank: 26 (T1), Pick: Kefka
My Video Game World Records: http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=22&p=35289

Ridley's got two more games, but Mother Brain's more significant in her games.

Are you serious?

And like I said, recognition. Recognition goes a long way, ask Master Hand.

I think you're confusing in-game recognition with player recognition.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

More influential than Samus or Chun Li? XD

Yeah, exactly. XD is the only way to respond to something like that. Let me see if the topic still exists...

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

Here's the post:

From: Vlado | Posted: 4/24/2005 5:30:37 PM | Message Detail
Tifa certainly influences the players of her game. She doesn't need to have many clones of her to be called "influential". Influencing the player is something much more important.

Her shy, tender, caring personality and the fact she's so life-like are much more important than how many characters are based on her (though she has a fair share there, too).

The topic, if you feel like reading it:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000015&topic=19896820&page=0

Good for a laugh. I don't dislike the guy, but he's one of the most misinformed people I've ever seen.

~*ST*~
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Get the X out.

Well, the way I see it, in all games other than Super Metroid, Ridley and Mother Brain are both just faceless boss battles. (Mother Brain is the final boss, so she's more significant in this case) In Super Metroid, she has a touching little cinematic during her battle, and that alone makes her more significant than "I break through the wall and we fight" Ridley. But I'm mainly arguing recognition here... which brings us to...

I think you're confusing in-game recognition with player recognition.

What you say !! No, seriously, I think you're confusing me. Please elaborate.
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

I mean that Master Hand didn't beat Kuja because he's prominent in his game. SSB is a series that has sold almost 5 million copies from a mere two games, and everyone who has played an SSB/M knows who Master Hand is. In-game, he's practically nothing. It's the people playing the game that made him strong in that match.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think your argument was bad. I might be wrong myself, but I think that Master Hand is one of the biggest example of game to character carry-over we'll ever see.

~*ST*~
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Winner of the Spring 2004 "Best. Game. Ever." Contest
"If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh!" -Magus Zeal

Okay, I get it. My point was that more casual Metroid Players/non Metroid Players will recognize Mother Brain than Ridley. Of course Mother Brain's no Master Hand, but Master Hand is a true example of a character not necessarily needing to be well loved to win. He just has to have more people that recognize him.

Seeing as the biggest argument I see for Ridley being stronger than MB is he's more liked among Metroid circles, I think it was relevant.

Aw poor hand, he gets no love. Well I'm rooting for him now that Kuja's gone.
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

2:00PST- Total votes
Kefka vs Mithos- 4526
Kefka vs Wesker- 5160

This poll seems to be quite a bit more popular at the moment and the extra votes are favoring Kefka. Perhaps his more recognizable picture is helping him draw in a few more votes afterall.
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"Those whose memories fade seek to carve them in their hearts..."
"All dreams are but another reality. Never forget..."

Meh, why not compromise and just say Mother Brain = Ridley?

Either way, Diablo is the favorite.
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L I T T L E M O N E Y

Well, ya know what would be funny? If this hard-ass Ruin division turns out only having seed upsets in the first round. Why would that be so funny? Cause then I get it right! ^_^

Heil Dweebenheimer!!! For I am MasterMage119!!!

Kefka 70.36% 6544
Wesker 29.64% 2757
TOTAL VOTES 9301

unless Kefka tanks more during the day than last round, i would just like to point out that yes, pics do matter. thank you. ^_^

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Official Co-Host for PUB TRIVIA XV
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=579093

X-stats for Liquid's fourpack:

Liquid Snake: 50.00%
Lavos: 44.38%
Mother Brain: 39.24%
Officer Tenpenny: 20.54%
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Spring Contest Score: 20/22
Today's Pick: Liquid Snake

Seeing Kefka win by this much is making me cry... I was hoping it would at least be 60-40.

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It's a Pinball Masquerade
Cheer up Emo kids. ~This sig was pimped by Icon's sig~

and Kefka's day percentage is actually going UP.

Kefka 70.56% 7247
Wesker 29.44% 3024
TOTAL VOTES 10271

i couldn't be happier with this match. one of my favorite villains is having the honor of proving that a crappy match pic can and does hurt you. ^________^

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Official Co-Host for PUB TRIVIA XV
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=579093

Do I really need to mention that I LOVE these results? ;) Finally, Kefka gets to do some pwnage to the image of his greatness. It's sad that he's probably going to drop like a sack of potatoes... however, if he DOES reach the mid-60s, then the pic factor is as good as dead and the match against Pac-Man was the true anomaly. Come to think about it, there may have been some sort of SFF variation for Luigi/Pac-Man, like for Link/Megaman, but this one under the old-school banner. I mean, here you have Pac-Man. He has about one thing going for him... he's old-school as they come. But then the opponent turns out to be Luigi, who pretty much takes that advantage away. You're left with only the core fans of the actual game, the one that tanked so hard against Metroid, remember? Not to say Pac-Man is as strong as Kefka 2004, since Kefka may have had a genuine boost between years (and the bracket support tends to reflect that, too), but Pac-Man is the jobber's version of Tidus, since he's never the same from year to year.
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Spring Contest 2005 - Points: 20/22 - Matches: 17/19 - Rank: 00392/24748 - Today: Liquid - Tomorrow: Kefka

Congrats harrich on making the top 50, even if it only will be for two days =)

This is a beating of epic proportions. I weep knowing what this will do to Luca, but man ooh man, do I smile at all the Wesker fanboys I argued with before the contest started who thought Wesker had a chance.

What exactly is the spoiler at the end of Metroid that y'all are agreeing is the biggest spoiler in all of gaming? Is it just finding out Samus is rollin' with a taco instead of a sausage?

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RIP: Tnote827 - 4/4/05
Team Dragostrea Din Tei for Trivia XV

Kefka Vs. Diablo may actually be a good match if Kefka can keep this above 70.
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L I T T L E M O N E Y

As much as Diablo looks like the favorite after yesterday's match, I tend to agree. Wonder what pic will be used? *Let it be the laughing sprite...*
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Spring Contest 2005 - Points: 20/22 - Matches: 17/19 - Rank: 00392/24748 - Today: Liquid - Tomorrow: Kefka

And for numbers' sake, the current results, based on a static Luca, put Kefka between Kirby and Dante, for a 4+ point improvement in the X-Sts.
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Spring Contest 2005 - Points: 22/24 - Matches: 18/20 - Rank: 00329/24748 - Today: Kefka - Tomorrow: Ridley

The funny thing is that people argued for an UNDERRATED Luca due to possible SFF.

Heh, I wish!
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L I T T L E M O N E Y

Hmmm, perhaps Luca rSFF'd Magus...

...what? >.>