So there was no rSFF in Mega Man/Zero now?

There never was. Zero did what he was supposed to do.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Whatever.

By the way, what exactly are you guys talking about when you say "reverse" SFF?

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When the weaker character benefits from SFF. Zero seems to be the best example we have right now.
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By the way, what exactly are you guys talking about when you say "reverse" SFF?

The weaker character doing better than he should as a result of sharing the same fanbase.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Mega Man/Link SFF makes sense. They were both incredibly popular game series on the NES. I don't see why it would be out of the question. There just shouldn't be very much, that's all.

Now what we really need to be arguing about here was the Mega Man/Tidus "X" SFF.
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The weaker character doing better than he should as a result of sharing the same fanbase.

...That's not reverse SFF. That's SFF.

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Agreed, from all the number crunching I did it almost looks possible that MM SFFd Zero just to win it at all. Sound sick and wrong, but then again that relies on Zero's 2k3 XSt. That aside, Zero did as he should have.

And Wily is now legitimately chipping away at Ocelot's %.
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But my silent fears have gripped me, long before I reach the phone, long before my tongue has tripped me. Must I always be alone?

...That's not reverse SFF. That's SFF.

Well, no kidding. It's just so we can differentiate between the two.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

It makes sense as a rationalization, but if you adjust Seph in 2k3 to match his 2k4 % you get MM's 2k4 % lining up just right. Frankly, it's clear to me that Seph overperformed in 2k3 and took MM up with him.
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But my silent fears have gripped me, long before I reach the phone, long before my tongue has tripped me. Must I always be alone?

Why are you differentiating between two things that are exactly the same thing? We already have to say "so-and-so benefitted from SFF and won the match." Just say "so-and-so benefitted from SFF, but still lost the match."

*shrug*

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The whole idea behind SFF, as best as I can understand it, is that character A relies on character B for his popularity, and as such, when facing character B, will get significantly fewer votes since character B is "absorbing" character A's popularity.

I haven't the foggiest how this applies in Mega Man vs Link. Mega Man does not rely on Link for his popularity.
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"That's Major Ocelot to you. And don't you forget it." - Ocelot

because it's easier to sum all that up with a lower-case r infront of SFF. rSFF. See? Easy.
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But my silent fears have gripped me, long before I reach the phone, long before my tongue has tripped me. Must I always be alone?

Why are you differentiating between two things that are exactly the same thing?

Because they're not exactly the same thing. A stronger character doing even better than he should is not the same as a weaker character doing better than he should.

Besides, we've never even seen a case of reverse SFF anyway. People just came up with the idea that perhaps Magus could do it to Crono.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

I wonder how many perfects have Vergil, Lavos, and Wesker winning.

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Of course, Dabu, which is why I spent hours playing with Sephiroth's 2k3 number so that I could adjust MM and everyone else in that half bracket. As I've said many times, if you sub in Seph's 2k4 number then 2k3 MM matches 2k4 MM.
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But my silent fears have gripped me, long before I reach the phone, long before my tongue has tripped me. Must I always be alone?

I wonder how many perfects have Vergil, Lavos, and Wesker winning.

Probably none for Vergil. One perfect up there has Lavos as his winner. Wesker should take down a few.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Perhaps my explanation for SFF is incorrect, as I believe that it's possible that it's not the character getting weaker, but that the character is actually performing at his true strength. In the other matches, he is actually inheriting a good portion of the strength that the character he is leeching from has.

The general case is difficult to word correctly, so I apologize if that's unreadable. I should probably just use a specific example to illustrate my point.

On a different note, I'd be very careful before adjusting statistics, and from a mathematical point of view must strongly discourage it.
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"That's Major Ocelot to you. And don't you forget it." - Ocelot

I haven't the foggiest how this applies in Mega Man vs Link. Mega Man does not rely on Link for his popularity.

Well it's not exactly "SFF" so to speak, but I'm sure alot of Mega Man's support comes from the originals on the NES, and then when the people think back to the NES it's possible they think "I liked Zelda better". Mega Man loses some votes from the "old school" crowd when facing Link.

But this happens in every match, really. It's possible that Mega Man got hurt more than he should've because of the "old school". We'd need Mega Man vs Mario to know the truth.
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

That scenario is not SFF, but is rather the exact thing that this contest is supposed to measure.

It's not supposed to be a contest of who is and isn't known; it is supposed to be who is most liked out of the knowns.
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"That's Major Ocelot to you. And don't you forget it." - Ocelot

We'd need Mega Man vs Mario to know the truth.

Chances are good that, if there was any sort of overperformance by Link, Mario could probably do the same thing. Facing Crono would give us a better idea.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Well that's why I said it's not exactly "SFF". I'm just saying that if Mega Man had faced Cloud, who had then faced Link, he probably would've looked a bit better. Because he'd not lose any "old school" votes.
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He needs nominations, 61! Nominate Raiden (Metal Gear Solid 2) for SC2K5!

Ocelot's lead just broke 400 and his percentage is over 58% again.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Well, that's because voting patterns aren't exactly transitive in the first place (No, I'm not trying to initiate an argument about the extrapolated statistics. While I firmly believe that they are inherently flawed and should never be used for close matches, they can provide a sufficient -- but rough -- model in many scenarios).
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"That's Major Ocelot to you. And don't you forget it." - Ocelot

Revolver Ocelot 58.38% 1547
Dr. Wily 41.62% 1103
TOTAL VOTES 2650

One hour in. And to think, some people wanted to sell their souls to change Ocelot over Wily.
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Can't keep a good man down, baby!

Well, this is somewhat anti-climactic early on...
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Jon Thomson - 16/18, today: Ocelot, tomorrow: Sephiroth
Nominate Ridley for Summer Contest 2005

At 4:35 AM EST I would imagine any votes right now aren't going to tell us anything about the actual outcome.

So, let me get this straight...

Nemesis > Wily?

o_O
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Dig Dug for SC2K5!

Nemesis > Wily?

Nah, someone will convolute some sort of SFF to excuse the Mega Man series failing horribly again, Link-stylee.
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Jon Thomson - 16/18, today: Ocelot, tomorrow: Sephiroth
Nominate Ridley for Summer Contest 2005

Leon if you don't think that there is SFF in Nemesis vs. Ocelot, then that implies that you think Nemesis > Wily. Now if you don't believe either than what we are witnessing right now would be either a miracle or you have yet to provide explanation for it. I personally don't find it too hard to believe that they have a similar fanbase, especially considering that I am a part of that similar fanbase. They are both third person action/adventure games with attempted complex adult plots. Also, I would just like to add, that if you really don't think these two series are similar or may have a same fanbase, then why have you grouped the two series together in your NCAA contest? >_>

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|| BtT 3:34.65 || HRC 37,592.3 ||

I think we should wait later on in the day to see if Nemesis is really better.
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Spring2K5: 16/18 | Today's Pick: Ocelot | Today's Vote: Dr. Wily

The only raeson that I at least think there was Link-Mega Man SFF was that, both of them were popular Nintendo franchises for a very long time. Most of Mega Man's fans are Nintendo users as shown by sales of games released on PS2 and GCN at the same time. They just seem to share a fanbase.

As for the definition of SFF, it'swhen two characters rely on the same fanbase for votes, but that fanbase happens to overwhelmingly prefer one in a head-to-head competition, hence causing the other one to appear weaker than they actually are.

Heil Dweebenheimer!!! For I am MasterMage119!!!

This board is so slow at this time of day, or morning... or night. >_>

Anyway, is it expected that Ocelot gains percentage or loses percentage during the day vote?

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I expect him to gain a good 10%.

Heil Dweebenheimer!!! For I am MasterMage119!!!

A thought occurred to me. I bet, even now, some of the perfect brackets are just favorite brackets.

Heil Dweebenheimer!!! For I am MasterMage119!!!

One hour in. And to think, some people wanted to sell their souls to change Ocelot over Wily.

i laugh at those people. HA!! the match isn't over yet, but Ocelot's still slowly increasing his lead and i never did lose faith in Ocelot.

From: cyko | Posted: 5/19/2005 11:59:22 PM | Message Detail

anyways, i will enjoy quite a good laugh if Nemesis winds up being the third strongest character in this division. i think Wily will do a little better than Nemesis, but i still think Ocelot will pull through. looks like i'll find out when i wake up.


*enjoys a good laugh*

heh, this is quite amusing to see Wily doing worse than Nemesis. i think we all lucked out by having Wily and Sigma face really weak characters and Nemesis faced a strong character in round one. i will admit right now that i never would have picked Nemesis over Wily or Sigma.

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X-stats for Bowser's four-pack:

Bowser: 50.00%
Sigma: 21.93%
Andross: 20.40%
Pyramid Head: 16.12%
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Spring Contest Score: 14/16
Today's Pick: Bowser

i will admit right now that i never would have picked Nemesis over Wily or Sigma.

Nor would I.

Heil Dweebenheimer!!! For I am MasterMage119!!!

A thought occurred to me. I bet, even now, some of the perfect brackets are just favorite brackets.

Considering that one of the perfects has Lavos winning... yeah.
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From: CaptainFlufflez | Posted: 5/20/2005 7:02:42 AM | Message Detail
Leon if you don't think that there is SFF in Nemesis vs. Ocelot, then that implies that you think Nemesis > Wily. Now if you don't believe either than what we are witnessing right now would be either a miracle or you have yet to provide explanation for it.

here's your explanation:

Nemesis is stronger than Wily, plain and simple. it's not by a whole lot, and none of us saw it coming before the contest started, but there's the numbers. it's not a miracle; it's unexpected.

From: Adept_Of_Aiur | Posted: 5/20/2005 7:07:08 AM | Message Detail
A thought occurred to me. I bet, even now, some of the perfect brackets are just favorite brackets.

heh, i thought of that, too. why else would someone have LAVOS winning the whole contest? sheesh.

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Hm. Unless I'm doing something wrong here, Sigma may very well end up below Ramirez in the Xstats for this contest. If Bowser gets what he's expected to on Sephiroth based on the 2K4 adjusted, then Sigma will end up with less than 15%.

Now there's a thought... Ramirez beating Sigma.

I knew Ocelot would win. :-)
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HURRAH!

I was so pumped to see Ocelot owning... then a little dissapointed as a result of a close match.

With that said, my post about game=/=character but a major factor looks even stronger when I was discussing it with Andaca. Because the RE series makes Nemesis bigger than Wesker... or so it would appear.

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Nemesis > Wesker?

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It's a Pinball Masquerade
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I think after seeing Wesker fail to break 60% on Luca that Nemesis>Wesker. This is amazing... Nemesis>Wily??? How many people on this board would have put that down in a bracket? Eight, maybe? I mean, I have mailed in this contest after seeing Kuja lose (especially after I called him the strongest non-summer entry), but technically there still is a decent chance he may end up being the 2nd strongest non-summer entry... freakin' glove. And I still think there will be a perfect bracket or five, barring something obscene happening like, oooh, say Master Hand vs. Sephiroth.

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I don't know after this match, I think quite a few perfects are gonna be knocked out, I think a lot more had Wily than had Ocelot, but I could be wrong.

I've been speculating Nemesis > Wesker ever since the poor showing against Luca, but now I think it's pretty obvious, and sad. Any diehard RE fan would vote Wesker over Nemesis, I dare anyone to find someone who would do different. The behind the scenes mastermind who without him there is no RE, or some gawky bastard who chases you throughout one entire game, not to mention the worst game of the series, IMO.

I guess Nemesis' name being plastered as the subtitle to RE3, and his face shown so much throughout the game won over the casual vote. I have lost all faith in humanity.

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There was no SFF between Ocelot and Nemesis. People are corssing genres claiming SFF, while it was originally only intended tfor characters of the same games or series.

The Ocelot and Nemesis fanbases are not nearly similar enough to warrant the leap of logic being made.
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Current Score: 15/15.
Tomorrows Pick: Kuja.

Ocelot's percentage has been going down constantly so far. I wouldn't be worried about Wily beating Ocelot's score. Still, another surprise to follow up the ones we had so far this week would've been welcome.
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Nice job Ocelot. I doubted you, but never gave up faith.

And Nemesis > Wily? Now that's just funny.
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It's MOOOOOOLLLLLTTTAAAARRRR!!!!

Percentage means NOZING.

Seriously, his vote total has steadily been increasing, the percentage has just been dropping.

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And...? The X-Sts aren't made using vote totals, boy.
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