| Summer Contest Discussion - Off-Season Topic |
| : | | | | | This Topic has been marked closed. No additional messages may be posted. | | | | Page 9 of 10 | | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/14/2003 6:33:48 PM | Message Detail |
Why
is anyone arguing Kirby and Alucard`s hypothetical advantage over one
another when they have already fought? Alucard won. Case closed.
And that post wasn`t meant to offend. I was merely saying that your posts look like, well, rants.
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| | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/14/2003 6:37:02 PM | Message Detail |
And
Magus isn`t going to beat Solid Snake. Quit your dreaming, young `un.
You have to take a rather close look at the characters in Magus`
quartet last year before comparing him to elite characters like Snake.
Ganondorf,
Tidus, and Magus are all good, but none of them will ever be threats to
the Elite 9 (Cloud, Sephiroth, Link, Mario, Solid Snake, Mega Man,
Samus, Sonic, and Crono). That`s just the way it goes. Granted, Magus
and Crono could have an interesting match, but it would be just that:
interesting. Jjukil and I didn`t waste a good week of our time creating
tiers for nothing.
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| | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/14/2003 6:40:17 PM | Message Detail |
Thats
what I'm saying though, creativename's list put Kirby over Alucard in
2k2 despite Kirby being a first round loser and despite his direct loss
to Alucard. The point was brought up that Kirby out performed Alucard
in 2k2 and thats simply not true... the only way to draw that
conclusion is by looking at creativename's list... which is why I'm
saying that creativename's list shows great innacuracies.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/14/2003 6:52:08 PM | Message Detail |
You
can say that all you want but until Magus faces off agaisnt someone
other than Link in a more fair situation you can't say he has no
chance. He fought a character who 70-80% of bracket voters were backing
in that match and it showed in the outcome, though as you can see he
pulled in 35% which is a bit better than what the bracket voters would
have had. They had no confidence in Magus and so he got about as much
as you could expect. The seeding may not mean crap to you and I who
will analyze every match and their possible outcomes but a lot of
people will simply pick the higher seed because they think the seeding
system provides the best prediction for the matches and then they shall
vote (and possibly cheat) to back their picks. Put Magus in a higher
seed and you could see him performing much better. Think about how many
first round upsets there were and how many were predicted. Really,
seeding has an effect on the uninformed bracket makers who don't know
how to pick. Think about 2k2... really, how many people expected
Scorpion to take down Pac-Man? It was just assumed by many people that
the 1 seed was stronger and would win... In fact I did see a number of
mind-numbingly stupid topics in 2k2 going on about how if you just
follow the seedings you'd have an almost perfect bracket wihch of
course was crushed very quickly. They aren't called the unthinking
masses for nothing. Oh, and I dunno how old you are UltimaterializerX
but you'd have to be middle-aged or older to be calling me a youngin'
since I'm well within the legal age to drink.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/14/2003 7:16:01 PM | Message Detail |
It was again, sarcasm. Jesus...
And
don`t tell me that I cannot predict things until they happen, as I am
one of the best debators of the Summer Contest on this entire board.
Had you been around since day one (like a certain unnamed party on this
board who shall remain nameless), you would know this. I`m not trying
to pick a fight or anything, but I`ve just been doing this for a very
long time. In fact, you won`t find one person on this board who can say
that they`ve proven me wrong in an SC argument.
Anyway, moving
onward. Did you happen to see the tiers that Jjukil and I collectively
came up with in Solarshadow`s topic over the summer? We rewrote and
rewrote until we came up with tiers that the board agreed with, and
Magus was nowhere near Snake. I love Magus, too, but the fact of the
matter is that the only people who would honestly think that Magus
could beat an upper-tier character were those who idolize Magus, and
not "serious" bracketeers. Magus cannot beat Solid Snake. Period. You
talk of his score against Link as type of overachievement, when his
loss to Link was one of the worst beatdowns of a Square character that
we had ever seen in the Summer Contest.
Oh, guess what?
Crono`s dispatching of Kefka in 2003 and Squall`s loss to, you guessed
it, Solid Snake, were the other two Square losses of equal or lesser
value than Magus` loss to Link.
So, in essence, we can
theoretically say that Link and Snake are equal in numbers for the sake
of this debate, and Magus falls under both of them. Game, set, match,
and good night, as my fiancé just showed up to drive me home. Keep this
topic bumped, because I haven`t had a good SC conversation in a long,
long time <3
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| | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/14/2003 7:58:26 PM | Message Detail |
Firstly
don't begin to assume that I idolize Magus as I don't, secondly do not
assume I wasnt here from the beginning because I was. I may not have
been an active poster in the stats topics but I did read nearly every
post. Moving on.
Again this is of course based off of indirect
comparisons based off a bad situation that excludes the possibility of
Magus being able to show his true power. If Link DIDN'T own Magus we'd
all have to have seriously considered the possibity that Link has lost
all standing whatsoever. Comparing Link to Kefka/Crono is a waste of
time because so many factors have been cited as being against him and
the fact of the matter is that it came off as a SFF match featuring a
hero and a villain, never a good situation for the villain, and Kefka
wasn't in last years contest so he had no confidence backing him. Kefka
was straight up owned left and right and his match wasnt as close to as
bad as Magus/Link... plus even in your tiers Link is a decent ways
above Crono (yes, I've seen them... they were great... it'd be good if
you reposted them sine I obviously don't have them memorized by heart
though I do have quite a bit stored somewhee in my brain). So the fact
that Magus stood up against Link better than Kefka stood against Crono
and the fact that Link is the higher tier of the two victors obviously
shows that Magus isn't as weak as you are trying to make him look.
And,
for those who trust creativenames's rankings, Magus isnt that far off
from SS. He is certainly no Squall though I imagine them to be on a
similar level as long as Cjay doesnt pull the brackets out of his ass
like 2k2. Again, If Snake hadn't owned Squall then he'd have been the
joke of the contest regardless of other recieving heavier beatings.
Snake didn't bea Crono, however, and if Magus can muster up all of the
Crono supporters he could very well take Snake. Again, though it cannot
be proven voter confidence may have prevented Magus from gainning that
support but a more appropriate seed could give him the respect he needs
to get the mindless masses to vote (and even cheat, dare I say it
again) for him giving him a better standing. As Magus stands this year
he has not got enough of what it takes to beat Snake but then again as
it was last year Snake didn't have what it takes to be considered on
the same level as Crono in any sort of tiers. Things can change in a
year, even for characters without new games (no new game featuring
snake, yet his standing appeared to have increased overall... dispite
his underwhelming 2k2 experience) and so like Squall's seemingly
dramatic rise in power (Making it to round 3 instead of losing in rd 1,
9% increased based on creativename's analysis) Magus too could see a
noticable increase that could shake things up. He has a chance against
Snake. I never said it was a very good one, and I certainly didn't say
it was a sure thing, but unless Snake's next game (and remakes I'm sure
we can all agree don;t do much) is really great and give a big push
Snake can't put it completely out of Magus' reach. I'm sorry if I led
you to believe that MGS3 is snake's only hope of winning because that
isn't at all what I meant... all I meant to say was that one could be
up in the air if he doesn't start kicking ass again.
You shall
not own me this day friend, though I admit your arguements do give you
the upperhand. If Link and Snake we're equal you'd have totally owned
me... but we know its simply not so.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/14/2003 8:24:12 PM | Message Detail |
Bump, because I too find enjoyment in the good SC conversation. Feel free to join in people.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: Were already dead | Posted: 11/14/2003 8:24:53 PM | Message Detail |
You guys type too much.
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I have an apple-ass, or so your mom tells me. Does that make me special?~CenaStone
Rage Against The Machine > Audio Slave | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/14/2003 10:57:27 PM | Message Detail |
| [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/14/2003 11:00:07 PM | Message Detail |
Heh, there was a very glaring typo in that message...
Well,
nobody said anything about my analyzing character values by division,
but I'd really appreciate it if someone commented on this message...
Now
that I think about, the North and East divisions of 2002 really aren't
all that low compared to the 2003 values(the South and West are still
very high compared to 2003)...however, its still low compared to to the
South/West divisions of 2002. (I'm getting this from the analyzing of
divisions on page 19)
This gets me thinking...maybe Mario wasn't
so underrated against Link as Sephiroth was OVERRATED in the battle
against Link. I have no idea why Sephiroth would do better than he
should against Link, though...but there's the fact that it would make
sense looking at next year, considering Samus looked better than Mario
in 2002, yet performed about the same as Mario. Sonic also did worse
than expected, as did Mega Man.
I still won't automatically
discard my old theory that Mario was very underrated (which I believed
was SFF), while nearly the entire 2003 bracket was underrated (which I
believed was from desperate bracket-voting and such in Cloud vs. Link).
Link
could've changed in popularity, but even if that happened, the weird
trends in the characters' values would still remain, so Link's changing
probably doesn't matter much in this situation...
I don't really care at this point what you guys think, but either one of those ways of looking at it seems to work fairly well
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"Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think." | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/14/2003 11:12:41 PM | Message Detail |
Er, on theory 2, another reason could simply be Link INCREASED. So yes, if anything, I do believe Link increased in popularity.
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"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. It could be fun! So...what is a party?"
"Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think." | | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/15/2003 4:48:01 AM | Message Detail |
It's obvious that Kirby did better than Alucard in 2002. Not by much, but he did.
Link/Jill: 73-27
Jill/Kirby: 56-44
Link/Mario: 62-38
Mario/Cloud: Negligeable
Cloud/Alucard: 70-30
And Ulti, Auron over Ganondorf? Hey, must I remind you Ganondorf beat Tidus already?
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: charmander6000 | Posted: 11/15/2003 6:59:17 AM | Message Detail |
This is Snowflakes on page 1
NORTH DIVISION
/ (1) Cloud Strife
\ (16) Ness
Ness take him out of the contest he didn't get over 25% on Bowser and Cloud murdered him
/ (8) Kirby
\ (9) Jill Valentine
Jill beat Kirby already, but this will be a close match
/ (5) Bowser
\ (12) KOS-MOS
KOS-MOS did win a match last year
/ (4) Shadow the Hedgehog
\ (13) Kefka Palazzo
/ (6) Auron
\ (11) Claire Redfield
Claire didn't win the match in 2002, but Auron did in 2003
/ (3) Ganondorf Dragmire
\ (14) Vyse
Why is Vyse in this contest???
/ (7) Donkey Kong
\ (10) Morrigan Aensland
Will be a very close match
/ (2) Megaman
\ (15) Nightmare
Nightmare is a bit underseeded
EAST DIVISION
/ (1) Mario Mario
\ (16) CATS
Gotta keep CATS
/ (8) Geno
\ (9) Master Chief
This match will show whats Geno's true power with Square and Nintendo behind him
/ (5) Squall Leonhart
\ (12) Sam Fisher
Sams back for another beating
/ (4) Tidus
\ (13) Ken Masters
I find this match up odd Ken could even almost break 40%
/ (6) Knuckles the Echidna
\ (11) Viewtiful Joe
Good so Knuckles doesn't get to verse Snake in round 2
/ (3) Zero
\ (14) Kasumi
Zero should win
/ (7) Alucard
\ (10) Wario
Wario from last year he's overseeded
/ (2) Crono
\ (15) Pikachu
Who wants dead rat stew???
SOUTH DIVISION
/ (1) Link
\ (16) Crash Bandicoot
Sad what a former 2 seed has been brought to (I'm talking about Crash)
/ (8) Yuna
\ (9) Lara Croft
A really close match
/ (5) Frog
\ (12) Captain Falcon
2 new guys a chance to see what popularity they have
/ (4) Ryu
\ (13) Bomberman
Bomberman shouldn't be in this contest if Ryu destroys him
/ (6) Yoshi
\ (11) Pac-Man
The dinosaur would win
/ (3) Janus "Magus" Zeal
\ (14) Ghaleon
Easy match
/ (7) Luigi Mario
\ (10) Aya Brea
Maybe Aya can pull an upset, but Luigi should win
/ (2) Solid Snake
\ (15) Ridley
Snake has this match in the bag
WEST DIVISION
/ (1) Sephiroth
\ (16) Gordon Freeman
Gordon has never won a match in 2002 he was a 3 seed in 2003 a 7 seed well it looks like he'll have 3 loses before he leaves
/ (8) Sora
\ (9) Miles "Tails" Prower
If KH is still as popular Sora should win
/ (5) Zelda
\ (12) Fox McCloud
/ (4) Aeris Gainsborough
\ (13) Duke Nukem
Aeris finally left the life of a 11 seed
/ (6) Tommy Vercetti
\ (11) Ramza Beoulve
GTA will die down and so will Vercetti's popularity
/ (3) Sonic the Hedgehog
\ (14) Mewtwo
Mewtwo is underseeded you won't be able to see how more popular he is if you put him against one of the elite 9
/ (7) Dante
\ (10) Scorpion
Dante is underseeded
/ (2) Samus Aran
\ (15) Sarah Kerrigan
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Vote in my tournament of stuff http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=8&topic=11089465 | | From: charmander6000 | Posted: 11/15/2003 7:10:20 AM | Message Detail |
NORTH DIVISION
/ (1) Cloud Strife
\ (9) Jill Valentine
And then Jill loses to another of the top 3
/ (5) Bowser
/ (4) Shadow the Hedgehog
This will be a great vilian match
/ (6) Auron
/ (3) Ganondorf Dragmire
Ganondorf already beated a FFX character
/ (7) Donkey Kong
/ (2) Megaman
Go Mega Man
EAST DIVISION
/ (1) Mario Mario
/ (8) Geno
The Nintendo supporters will switch to Mario and giving us another Mario vs. DK
/ (5) Squall Leonhart
/ (4) Tidus
/ (6) Knuckles the Echidna
/ (3) Zero
Knuckles will always lose in the second round
/ (7) Alucard
/ (2) Crono
Another victim to Crono
SOUTH DIVISION
/ (1) Link
/ (8) Yuna
Can anyone say blowout???
/ (5) Frog
/ (4) Ryu
Ryu comes back to the Sweet 16 again
/ (6) Yoshi
/ (3) Janus "Magus" Zeal
This will be a close match
/ (7) Luigi Mario
/ (2) Solid Snake
Couldn't win against Squall. Snake beated Squall
WEST DIVISION
/ (1) Sephiroth
/ (8) Sora
/ (5) Zelda
/ (4) Aeris Gainsborough
This will be a very close match
/ (6) Tommy Vercetti
/ (3) Sonic the Hedgehog
With GTA dieing down Sonic should be able to win
/ (7) Dante
/ (2) Samus Aran
3 years in a row and Dante hasn't gotten to the Sweet 16
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Vote in my tournament of stuff http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=8&topic=11089465 | | From: charmander6000 | Posted: 11/15/2003 7:16:50 AM | Message Detail |
NORTH DIVISION
/ (1) Cloud Strife
/ (5) Bowser
Another rematch and Bowser will lose again
/ (3) Ganondorf Dragmire
/ (2) Megaman
Mega Man is popular
EAST DIVISION
/ (1) Mario Mario
/ (5) Squall Leonhart
Mario will avenge Luigi's death from 2003
/ (3) Zero
/ (2) Crono
Everyone wants to see Mario vs. Crono III
SOUTH DIVISION
/ (1) Link
/ (4) Ryu
Link will win forsure
/ (3) Janus "Magus" Zeal
/ (2) Solid Snake
Good bye Magus, but you can't beat the elite 9
WEST DIVISION
/ (1) Sephiroth
/ (4) Aeris Gainsborough
Same fanbase this is the square version of Mario vs. DK
/ (3) Sonic the Hedgehog
/ (2) Samus Aran
well 34 votes doesn't say anything, but tis will be one of if not the closest match in this tournament
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Vote in my tournament of stuff http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=8&topic=11089465 | | From: charmander6000 | Posted: 11/15/2003 7:25:29 AM | Message Detail |
NORTH DIVISION
/ (1) Cloud Strife
/ (2) Megaman
Mega Man is going to lose as much as he did on Sephiroth vs Mega Man II
EAST DIVISION
/ (1) Mario Mario
/ (2) Crono
Crono
is winning by 800 Mario only had the lead for 2 hours in the morning
3/4 of us goes to bed either accepting defeat or finally Crono beats
Mario then when you wake up and check the results Mario wins by 140
votes. THE END
SOUTH DIVISION
/ (1) Link
/ (2) Solid Snake
Link wins
WEST DIVISION
/ (1) Sephiroth
/ (3) Sonic the Hedgehog
FINAL FOUR
/ (1) Cloud Strife
/ (1) Mario Mario
With KH Mario has no chance
/ (1) Link
/ (1) Sephiroth
This rematch will be alot closer then the first one, but Link should win
FINAL MATCH
/ (1) Cloud Strife
/ (1) Link
No one wants a repat finals so the final match will be close, but Link should be able to squeze by
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Vote in my tournament of stuff http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=8&topic=11089465 | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/15/2003 8:44:11 AM | Message Detail |
Slowflake,
you're going though two blowouts to compare Alucard while only one to
compare Kirby. perhaps if you didn't have to go through the mario match
to look at alucard you would see that Kirby isn't stronger than
Alucard, and never was. Try a more direct comparison... Alucard to
B-Man (2k3) to Jill (2k2) to Kirby. Kirby wasnt stronger, unless you
believe in flawed method in which creativename's list gets its values.
The closer to Link to the better the score. If Link would have directly
fought Cloud instead of Mario then the list would show alucard as being
higher. Do the whole bracket as is in a comparison just lik
creativename's but reverse the values of Link and Mario in the finals
(or better yet, make them exactly equal) and see what happens to Kirby.
Again, creativename's list is flawed and you shouldn't use it to try to
prove any points. Your math is incorrect, go back and do closer
comparisons instead of going through Link. If we can assume that cloud
was only say 10% lower than Link in 2k2 but made to look stronger due
to PGC's involvement with the poll then Alucard would still look
better. Stop using creativename's list for everything, even he would
say it's rather flawer due to the method in which he got the numbers.
If you really believed those numbers I'm really going to have to feel
sorry for you.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/15/2003 8:54:05 AM | Message Detail |
The
inequality in brackets is due to them being set up by CjayC both years.
I'm sure it wasn't intentional but he attempted to make then as even as
possible as far as him knowledge allowed him. His knowledge, however,
doesn't represent the voting patterns of the GameFAQs readers. I have a
strogn feeling that the Mario/Link battle was decided by square fans
rather than nintendo fans. Zelda games are closer to RPGs than Mario
games, Link wields a sword and looks a lot like your typical sword
wielding hero and Link didn't beat not one but two of squares biggest
characters back-to-back in insanely close and higly controversial
matches. As far as the feel for 2k2 goes Seph performed right where he
should have... he was hyped up going into the Mega Man match just like
Mega was because both had several (easy) blowouts leading up to their
matches. The steam ran out of the Seph machine when they hit eachother
full force and cause a very close match and then Seph limped on to Link
who had been doing more than well enough for himself. I actually
expected Mega Man to reach Link myself (one of the few, I know) but
that didn't happen. Maybe Link got some added votes from mega man fans
angry at their loss... or maybe the mega man fans just related to Link
more since it was closer to their type of game... or maybe Seph just
didn't have a shot at winning but wasn't weak either. The results feel
perfect for the time.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/15/2003 9:12:58 AM | Message Detail |
Alright,
blowout may have been too strong of a word, how about deffinite
victories. BTW, I must say again and again indirect comparisons skew
the results of competitors that are farther away from the source (Link).
Anyway,
on the Auron over G-dorf matter. I too may have reservations about
picking that result (especially if I looked at creativename's list)
though I don't think its out of the question. The Tidus/Ganon match was
close, too close to name Ganondorf superior. They could reasonably meet
again and have diferent results, and I'd say you need a 60/40 or better
split to prove yourself to be dominant. If Auron has all of Tidus'
backing then we can assume Auron would do approximately the same
(something cn's list cannot account for), but as we know there is a
noticable portion of voters who will back Auron but not Tidus. The
question that leave is how many of the Tidus supporters will be there
for Auron and how many more Auron supports there are than Tidus
supporters. I'm still leaning towards Ganon, but if his choice spot so
close to his hero could be proven to have an effect on the votes he
recieved (and we do know people wanted to see a Link/Ganon match, we
just need to figure out about how many of them wouldn't have voted for
Ganon if he was elsewhere). It'd be a tough call.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/15/2003 10:32:37 AM | Message Detail |
Oh, me dizzy.
And since everyone's at it, I'll predict my bracket, as soon as I get the next matches up on the board.
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/15/2003 10:41:30 AM | Message Detail |
dizzy?
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: Heroic Knuckles | Posted: 11/15/2003 3:19:12 PM | Message Detail |
Whew!
Been reading the archive of the original discussion topic, and I've
been laughing my @$$ off over how we predicted Luigi to crush Squall
and Knuckles to lose to Yuna...
Oh, this is a karma bump. TWO more days before I'm a regular user!
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<b<WHATS
DMC!!!My God, man. How do you live with yourself? Your soul must be an
empty, shallow shell. I truly feel pity for you. ~Squid Z | | From: Heroic Knuckles | Posted: 11/15/2003 3:42:59 PM | Message Detail |
Hehe...some poor fool thought Lara Croft would beat Zelda, I believe his name was UltimaterializerX...
And a creativename quote:
"The
conclusion from this reveals Sephiroth and Mega Man to be Link's
toughest potential oppoenents, with Samus and Sonic not far behind.
Mario, Crono, and Cloud are each on a popularity tier behind Samus and
Sonic."
---
<b<WHATS DMC!!!My God, man. How do you live
with yourself? Your soul must be an empty, shallow shell. I truly feel
pity for you. ~Squid Z | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/15/2003 4:08:38 PM | Message Detail |
I've
decided to use my own rankings list to give you my opinion on an
Alucard vs. Kirby match in 2002, because some of CN's values seem way
too low. One glaring problem is how low Max Payne is...13.58%. He
managed 17.33% on Sephiroth the next year! And a huge increase is
highly, highly, unlikely. In my rankings list, Max has a value of
16.641%.
Well, obviously I push up Alucard quite a ways in 2002,
based on what I've noticed before. I've decided to use my own rankings
list, because some of CN's values seem way too low. One glaring problem
is how low Max Payne is...13.58%? He got 17.67% on the 2003 Sephiroth!
Okay,
my adjustments seem to even with the 2003 values best when I raise the
powerhouses of the North and East divisions by .5%, and lower the South
and West divisions by about 3.5%. This puts Mario a whopping 4% higher
compared to all the South and West division characters (This means that
Mario is right on par with Sonic and Samus now in 2002.)
Now,
Alucard is slightly raised from the 22.702% to approx. 23%, while Kirby
lowers from 25.5% to about 24%. There's still room here for an Alucard
win, probably, if we now include Mario's clutch move against Cloud (and
to compensate for that, I'd raise Cloud slightly more). This could put
Alucard and Kirby on about an equal level, in the most extreme case in
favor in Alucard. But I'd have to say Kirby would beat Alucard 51/49 in 2002.
My
thought of the day: Who would have won a Summer 1996 Character battle
here? 1998? 2000? And if GameFAQs existed before that, how about even
earlier years?
---
"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. It could be fun! So...what is a party?"
"Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think." | | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/15/2003 4:13:33 PM | Message Detail |
I
dunno, Link would likely have won 1996 against either Crono or Mario,
1998... Cloud? 2000 Link probably. Before 1996... Link, definitely.
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/15/2003 4:39:55 PM | Message Detail |
Before
1996: I think it'd be a contest between Mario, Sonic, and Mega
Man...I'll say Sonic since he's performed well in 2002 and 2003,
despite being on a constant decline after Sonic & Knuckles. Before
maybe 1993, though, I would pick Mario to win.
1996: I'd probably say Mega Man...those MMX games were huge. Not to mention the gamers seemed a bit more "hardcore" wh
1998: FF7 was HUGE, so I'd pick, hm, Sephiroth to win the contest.
IMO, Ocarina of Time was the
game that made Link so incredibly popular. Link was so bad-*** (argh, I
don't swear at ALL) in OoT, but before that Link looked like an
ordinary elf, even in the artwork. He probably would've been a 2nd tier
character back then. So from 1999 and on I would expect Link to have
won all the contests until 2003.
As for Crono, I don't think he
was as popular when CT came outas he is now...RPGs weren't all that big
until FF7. Then after that tons of people were scrambling to find any
old SNES Squaresoft RPG, especially CT.
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"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. It could be fun! So...what is a party?"
"Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think." | | From: Yesmar | Posted: 11/15/2003 5:34:52 PM | Message Detail |
Anytime before Sonic came out: Mario
1991-1998: Mario, Sonic, or Megaman. Link and Crono after LTTP and CT would do well too, although Crono's a long shot.
1998: Sephiroth
1999-2002: Link
2003: Cloud
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Heh Heh... The wind... It is blowing...--Ganondorf
Mad Caddies Team Member | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/15/2003 6:08:20 PM | Message Detail |
I
still find Kirby beating Alucard highly unlikely. Indirect comparisons
can't prove it and the only direct comparison we have shows Kirby
losing. The math isn't always the sole deciding factor. Oh, and UX
picked Lara Croft? To quote from UHF "You so stupid!". Sorry, just had
to do it.
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: Haste2 | Posted: 11/15/2003 7:26:14 PM | Message Detail |
Numbers
are by far the most reliable way of determining battles, though. And
yes, looking at things indirectly do often skew the reusults, but
honestly, how is it any worse than trying to make up a comparison
between characters? For example, How could one think 30% against Cloud
in 2002 would be better than 24-25% against Link? Or 27% against Link
for that matter? If you don't get things more indirect (back to LInk),
you will just have to purely guess on the strengths of other
characters. You could find out that Cloud is quite a ways below Link,
for example. Also, you can't just assume a character will change in
popularity because of new game or something like that...just look at
how bad Samus did against Link with her new games.
I'm not saying Alucard would've had to lose to Kirby in 2002....
Of
course it's just guesswork if you have no numbers to work with for new
characters, and that's where reasoning things out is most important.
---
"Ah, a party! We haven't had one of those. It could be fun! So...what is a party?"
"Well, you drink punch and eat CAKE! ...I think." | | From: Yesmar | Posted: 11/16/2003 11:45:51 AM | Message Detail |
For my last post, I was just saying, who I thought would win the contest in those years. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.
---
Heh Heh... The wind... It is blowing...--Ganondorf
Mad Caddies Team Member | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/16/2003 4:16:44 PM | Message Detail |
bumpity
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Ha! You have been tricked by he who is I! | | From: King Blue | Posted: 11/17/2003 2:38:54 PM | Message Detail |
bumpo
---
"You used to be cool. But now, you're nothing but a loser. I'm going to show you what it means to be a true hero!" ~Viewtiful Joe | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:23:39 PM | Message Detail |
You weren`t owned, but my argument`s better <3
And Ulti, Auron over Ganondorf? Hey, must I remind you Ganondorf beat Tidus already?
You
honestly don`t think that Auron would be able to defeat Tidus? If you
go to the FFX boards, many people think that FFX is every bit Auron`s
story as it is Tidus`. I think Auron could win that match without a
hitch. He`s the stereotypical Squaresoft badass, and Tidus, though
well-developed, is still who he is.
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| | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:26:20 PM | Message Detail |
Auron's
the FF10 fan-favorite, but so is Magus, who's still behind Crono as we
speak. Being a fan-favorite does not net you votes. Being the lead
character and, to a lesser extent, the villain, does. See Bowser vs.
Yoshi? Yoshi's the fan-favorite, but he still got creamed. And hey, I'd
take 34% against Link over 28% against Cloud anyday!
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:26:26 PM | Message Detail |
It might take a rather long debate to get the tiers the way JJ and I had them, but I`ll try. Give me a few minutes here...
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| | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:28:10 PM | Message Detail |
Below Tidus and Zero, there's no significant enough margin between anyone to make a decent tier list.
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:33:04 PM | Message Detail |
I
did say you had the upper hand Ulti. I still stand by the belief that
he has a chance, though some may not think its a great one... You know,
like, he'd at least come closer than Knux.
---
We knew our love could not pretend, Broken hearts can always mend. - "Send Her My Love" Journey | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 3:56:54 PM | Message Detail |
Ok, here we go...
Top Tier:
Link, Cloud, Sephiroth, and Mario. Depite recent drawbacks for Mario,
he still belongs here. All of these characters own victories over at
least one of the others, so telling them apart would be pure hell.
Should I be forced to split them up into two seperate tiers, however,
I`d put Link/Cloud alone at the top, and Sephiroth/Mario just a
half-step below them. They are the elite in the contest, hand down,
with few arguments. In every Summer Contest, these four characters will
be the ones to beat, and when any of them lose, they`ll ruin the most
brackets.
2nd Tier: Crono, Mega Man, Samus, and Sonic the
Hedgehog. The only time we saw a match featuring any of these two
against each other, the final vote difference was 34. These characters
are the second half of the "Elite 9", so to speak. In every bracket,
they`ll most likely only fall to the top tier characters.
Snake`s Tier:
Snake and Zero. Snake`s stock in this contest is the easiest to call.
He can beat anyone below this tier, and will lose to anyone above it.
4th Tier:
Auron, Ganondorf, Tidus, Magus, Shadow the Hedgehog, Knuckles, Zero,
and Aeris. It`s a large tier, but it makes sense. They all have similar
numbers to one another, and should any of these characters have a match
against any of the others, we could see some of the contest`s closest
matches. A few very good points can be made about how this tier should
be smaller, but take a close look. Not one of those characters can beat
all of the rest with 100% certainty. Hell, for all we know, we could
literally call Ganondorf, Tidus, and Magus absolute equals. Knuckles
gets thrown into the list with all of the Sonic > Tidus, but
Knuckles > Yuna debates flying around. Auron, Zero, and Shadow have
only been in two matches each, but their numbers are oddly similar.
They both won their first matches with fairly similar percentages, and
the only reason that Auron`s percentage wasn`t similar to the other two
in round two is because he was facing Cloud. Finally, there is Aeris.
The girl is unbeatable in the first two rounds, and her only two losses
in the contest thusfar are to Solid Snake and Sonic the Hedgehog, so it
makes sense for her to be in this tier. And she hasn`t faced anyone
else in the tier, so predicting any of those matches would be hell.
Seriously, Aeris vs Magus? Pull out all the numbers you want to, but
that`s just one example in a LONG line of tossups involving this tier.
One thing I know for certain, however, is the fact that none of these
characters can beat anyone above them. They might make a good run at
it, but the numbers still point to anyone above this tier having a
distinct advantage.
5th Tier: Squall, Bowser, and Zelda.
Many would argue that they should be placed higher, but I disagree. To
start, Zelda is the weak link in the Zelda series. Ganondorf and Link
would both open up a can on her little white ass. Squall has a couple
of impressive victories, and his loss to Solid Snake in 2002 was an
overstatement on the parts of many 2003 bracketeers, including myself.
Squall can hack it with a lot of characters in the contest. As for
Bowser, his win over Yoshi proved that he`s above average, at least.
(4k check)
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| | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:17:51 PM | Message Detail |
Hey, Magus is only a step below Snake in my book, as you can see. I give you that much.
6th Tier:
Luigi, Jill Valentine, Scorpion, KOS-MOS, Yoshi, Ryu, Yuna, Knuckles,
Lara Croft, Ken, and Fox. Debate all you want to as to who can beat who
within this group. I honestly don`t care, as none of them, save for
some BLIND luck, will ever get past the sweet 16. They can defeat some
characters here and there, but against those who are clearly better
than they are, they stand no chance. The one wild card in this group is
Knuckles. He definantly should be higher up on the tier chart, but I
don`t know exactly where to put him. The fact that the same exact
character eliminated him two years in a row makes Knuckles a little
confusing to predict. I guarantee that at least one match involving
Knuckles in 2004 will set the board on fire, just like Knuckles/Yuna
did.
And if you`re about to post about how people within this
group can beat others, it`s a general group of characters. Sure, they
can fight among themselves, but none of them can beat everyone else in
the group, with the possible exception of Knuckles. Moving on...
7th Tier:
Alucard, Kirby, Dante, Pac Man, Kefka, Wario, and Sora. I put Alucard
and Kirby in the same tier, just to **** with those who are arguing
about it. Ha to you.
Pac Man and Kefka should be in the same
tier after what happened in 2003. Sure, a better picture of Kefka would
have gotten him an extra 200 votes, but he would have still gotten his
ass kicked by Crono. As for everyone else in this tier, they all look
cute on paper, but any of them against most of the characters in the
tiers above them. They`ll get killed. They`ll all win a match here and
there over people that don`t belong in the contest, but they still
can`t fend for themselves well.
8th Tier: Tommy Vercetti,
Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Raiden, Bomberman, and Crash Bandicoot. I could
even throw Aya Brea into this tier if I wanted to. And my, how the
mighty have fallen. Vercetti has gone from one who many thought would
win in 2003 to being in the same tier as Pikachu. He should seriously
go and kill himself.
9th Tier: Master Chief, Ramza, Max
Payne, Duke Nukem, Ryo Hazuki, Isaac, Felix, Ratchet, Conker, and Ness.
We have to fill 64 spots on a bracket, and these charcters are pretty
much nothing more than filler. They may all win a match here or there
against a sweat stain, but other than that, they are fodder for those
above them.
Sweat Stains: AiAi, Sam Fisher, Captain
Olimar, Vyse, Kite, Tom Nook, Mr. Resetti, Raziel, and CATS. Line them
all up and make fun of them. Granted, CATS deserves better, but he`s
still never going to win a match.
Gordon Freeman: Gordon Freeman
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| | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:26:40 PM | Message Detail |
Haha, Gordon jokes never get old.
Where to begin, where to begin.
Mario top tier? Sonic second tier? Methinks you like the legends a bit too much.
Magus, Ganon and Tidus seem to be slightly ahead of Zero. They should all go in the same tier... along with Snake and Sonic.
You have Zero and Knuckles listed twice.
Shadow, Aeris, Squall, Ryu and Zelda should be together, with Knuckles and Bowser not far behind.
You're underrating Dante, Alucard, Vercetti and DK. Badly.
Oh, and for the positive, I agree with everything else. Including Gordon. Man he sizzuks.
---
TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:27:41 PM | Message Detail |
Oh, and Master Chief appears to be a floating character of sorts, moreso than Mario. Don't forget what he did against Aeris.
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: Shake II | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:27:43 PM | Message Detail |
'Tis good to be back. *cracks knuckles*
We are discussing tiers now? K, I'll throw in my 2 cents. BTW, shout-out to Ulti and SlowFlake.
Top
Tier: Link, Cloud, Sephiroth, and Mario. Depite recent drawbacks for
Mario, he still belongs here. All of these characters own victories
over at least one of the others, so telling them apart would be pure
hell. Should I be forced to split them up into two seperate tiers,
however, I`d put Link/Cloud alone at the top, and Sephiroth/Mario just
a half-step below them. They are the elite in the contest, hand down,
with few arguments. In every Summer Contest, these four characters will
be the ones to beat, and when any of them lose, they`ll ruin the most
brackets.
I have to say I would seperate Mario from this tier, since he is closer to Crono and co then to Link, Sephiroth and Cloud.
However, I agree Mario is the 4th strongest competitor. And one with a special attack, no less.
MARIOBUTTCLUTCHED !!!
2nd
Tier: Crono, Mega Man, Samus, and Sonic the Hedgehog. The only time we
saw a match featuring any of these two against each other, the final
vote difference was 34. These characters are the second half of the
"Elite 9", so to speak. In every bracket, they`ll most likely only fall
to the top tier characters.
I would probably make more tiers, and put Mario and Crono on a tier of their own.
Behind
them are Samus and Megaman. Behind that are Sonic and Snake. (As of
this moment, we don't know what this year will bring, specifically MSG
3.)
Snake`s Tier: Snake and Zero. Snake`s stock in this
contest is the easiest to call. He can beat anyone below this tier, and
will lose to anyone above it.
I thought Magus, Ganon and
Tidus were above Zero? I agree Zero is strong, but I always thought
that he was on Shadows playing field, not on Snake's.
4th
Tier: Auron, Ganondorf, Tidus, Magus, Shadow the Hedgehog, Knuckles,
Zero, and Aeris. It`s a large tier, but it makes sense. They all have
similar numbers to one another, and should any of these characters have
a match against any of the others, we could see some of the contest`s
closest matches. A few very good points can be made about how this tier
should be smaller, but take a close look. Not one of those characters
can beat all of the rest with 100% certainty. Hell, for all we know, we
could literally call Ganondorf, Tidus, and Magus absolute equals.
Knuckles gets thrown into the list with all of the Sonic > Tidus,
but Knuckles > Yuna debates flying around. Auron, Zero, and Shadow
have only been in two matches each, but their numbers are oddly
similar. They both won their first matches with fairly similar
percentages, and the only reason that Auron`s percentage wasn`t similar
to the other two in round two is because he was facing Cloud. Finally,
there is Aeris. The girl is unbeatable in the first two rounds, and her
only two losses in the contest thusfar are to Solid Snake and Sonic the
Hedgehog, so it makes sense for her to be in this tier. And she hasn`t
faced anyone else in the tier, so predicting any of those matches would
be hell. Seriously, Aeris vs Magus? Pull out all the numbers you want
to, but that`s just one example in a LONG line of tossups involving
this tier. One thing I know for certain, however, is the fact that none
of these characters can beat anyone above them. They might make a good
run at it, but the numbers still point to anyone above this tier having
a distinct advantage.
I agree with most of this, although I would throw Zero in here too.
5th Tier: Squall, Bowser, and Zelda. Many would argue that they should be placed higher, but I disagree.
Here's
where it gets difficult. The lower you get, the harder it becomes
assigning tiers. I can honestly say I have little to refute or agree
too, since I simply don't know how to arrange these tiers.
^_~
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Shake II: Revenge of the Shake, Shake Shakes back ! ~BigCow | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:31:33 PM | Message Detail |
Wow, I have Knuckles and Zero listed twice. God, I`m an idiot sometimes.
Ok, well, I`m up for constant rearranging until we can agree on a set tier list, just like Jjukil and I did.
---
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| | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:35:47 PM | Message Detail |
Actually,
there's no need to agree. Everyone below the first 13 characters is
just one big spaghetti. Of course, we know Bowser would kill KOS-MOS if
they ever met, but that's not the point. There's just no clean cut
after Zero.
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:40:09 PM | Message Detail |
Heh. I got a shout-out from Shake. I can, like, SO die in peace now.
Ok, I`ll tweak the lists a bit:
Top Tier: Link, Cloud, and Sephiroth
2nd Tier: Crono and Mario
3rd Tier: Mega Man, Samus, and Sonic
4th Tier: Snake
5th Tier: Auron, Ganondorf, Tidus, Magus, Shadow the Hedgehog, Knuckles, Zero, and Aeris
6th Tier: Squall, Bowser, and Zelda
7th Tier: Luigi, Jill Valentine, Scorpion, KOS-MOS, Yoshi, Ryu, Yuna, Knuckles, Lara Croft, Ken, and Fox
8th Tier: Alucard, Kirby, Dante, Pac Man, Kefka, Wario, and Sora
9th Tier: Tommy Vercetti and Donkey Kong
10th Tier: Pikachu, Raiden, Bomberman, and Crash
11th Tier: Master Chief, Ramza, Max Payne, Duke Nukem, Ryo Hazuki, Isaac, Felix, Ratchet, Conker, and Ness
CATS: CATS
Sweat Stains: AiAi, Sam Fisher, Captain Olimar, Vyse, Kite, Tom Nook, Mr. Resetti, and Raziel
Gordon Freeman: Gordon Freeman
I
gave CATS a tier of his own to show some <3. That, and I refuse to
let Gordon Freeman, crotch sweat personified, get the 13th tier. My
favorite number is 13.
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| | From: Heroic Tails | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:41:20 PM | Message Detail |
What I strongly disagree with :
Mario
should go down one tier. He was crushed by Sephiroth, remember ? And
SC2K2 was SC2K2, it shouldn't count that much anymore.
Drop Sonic to 3rd tier, with Snake.
Knuckles has nothing to do in the 4th tier, but since you put him somewhere else too, I guess that was just a mistake.
Add Alucard to the 6th Tier. I also think you overestimate Fox - 7th tier would be a better place for him.
Donkey
Kong and Tommy Vercetti should be up one tier too, to the 7th. Drop
Pac-Man and Mega-Man to 8th, they really are weaker than this.
Add Tails to the 8th tier, since he was nowhere else to be found. Master Chief should be there too, as well as Felix and Isaac.
As for the rest I pretty much agree. All of these are just suggestions of course.
---
A typo that results in the word "typo" is the greatest typo of them all. - UltimaterializerX
| | From: Slowflake | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:43:23 PM | Message Detail |
MM 8th tier? You meant Bomberman I presume?
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TEJELPAMMED: Know your roots in the morning before work, with added vitamin fad. -Lettuce Kefka on TEJELPAMMED cereals | | From: ChichiriMuyo | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:44:00 PM | Message Detail |
| [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] | | From: Heroic Tails | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:44:35 PM | Message Detail |
Oops... I was thinking about Kefka, really. Why did I even put Megaman here ?
---
A typo that results in the word "typo" is the greatest typo of them all. - UltimaterializerX
| | From: UltimaterializerX | Posted: 11/17/2003 4:49:17 PM | Message Detail |
Muyo:
Alucard won`t beat any of the characters in the tiers above him. Face
it. He only got to the sweet 16 two yars in a row because of some great
positioning in the bracket.
And damn, I missed Tails?
Top Tier: Link, Cloud, and Sephiroth
2nd Tier: Crono and Mario
3rd Tier: Mega Man, Samus, and Sonic
4th Tier: Snake
5th Tier: Auron, Ganondorf, Tidus, Magus, Shadow the Hedgehog, Knuckles, Zero, and Aeris
6th Tier: Squall, Bowser, and Zelda
7th Tier: Luigi, Jill Valentine, Scorpion, KOS-MOS, Yoshi, Ryu, Yuna, Knuckles, Lara Croft, Ken, and Fox
8th Tier: Alucard, Kirby, Dante, Pac Man, Kefka, Wario, Sora, and Tails
9th Tier: Tommy Vercetti and Donkey Kong
10th Tier: Pikachu, Raiden, Bomberman, and Crash
11th Tier: Master Chief, Ramza, Max Payne, Duke Nukem, Ryo Hazuki, Isaac, Felix, Ratchet, Conker, and Ness
CATS: CATS
Sweat Stains: AiAi, Sam Fisher, Captain Olimar, Vyse, Kite, Tom Nook, Mr. Resetti, and Raziel
Gordon Freeman: Gordon Freeman
---
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